Things that change us

[Mr.Obvious]

Alright Deirdre, with your permission.

I'll put this as simply as I can. Not because I think I must speak in simple terms for Godscreated. I'm sure (s)he's an intelligent person. It's just that in my experience in explaining this to others, confusion tends to rise.

For future reference it is he and I thank you for believing I'm intelligent. You can explain thing to me in any way that makes you comfortable.

A god that is omnipotent, omniscient and created the world we live in has complete control over everything that has happened, happens and will happen. It knows the choices we'll make in our lives and the results those will yield. If not, the god is not omniscient. But, as I've heard it countered, the god knowing of our decisisions in advance does not mean they are made without our free will. And that would be true and I could up to some point accept that, if he were not endowed with other omni-traits.

Okay let's look at what you have said and actually would know about God. You have given two of God's omni-traits (as you call them). God is also omnipresent, this is as important and powerful as the other two and explains why those two are omni-traits. Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so. There are many aspects to God that controls what He does and can do. You mention in the bold (by me) that we make choices and God knows them, if God were who you say He is we would have no choices, we could do only as He has chosen from the beginning. You have already introduced a flaw in what you Believe about God. Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent. God's omnipresence allows Him to know all our decisions because He is eternal meaning he has existed in all moments in eternity, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that thought. So none of the omni-traits that's mentioned here can be said to lead God to control all of humanities decisions and, God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. 

See, the way I see it; god supposedly created the universe. And not only that, because this god is all powerful; it could have created it's creation (the universe) in any way it wanted to. The ways it could have created the creation is not only this world. Or else it's not an omnipotent god. If the god is limited to a single universe it can create only in a single way, it is not an unlimited being. So there have to be an infinite universes it could have created. By creating this one, it made the prime choice.

I disagree with your assumption that God could have created the universe any different than He did, the idea of multi-verses or many different options in creating the universe are an idea purported by man with not one iota of evidence. Actually this idea is used to try and prove there is no God because He didn't create a perfect universe when in actuality He did. Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. If you want a better understanding of why God created the universe in the way He did you should get the DVD "The Star Of Bethlehem", it explains it much better than I can. God didn't make a prime choice, God had a plan for a relationship with man and designed the universe around that plan. God is limited in a way we can't understand completely, God can't lie, sin or anything that goes against His nature, if he could he would not be the trustworthy God He is.

Such a prime choice in itself does not take away free will of those that come after. My parents deciding to have only three children instead of five, for example, does influence my entire life. But what it does not do is make me 'feel' like my decisions throughout my life are determined in advance. I still feel like I have my free will. However I do imagine that if my parents had given me two younger siblings, my life would have been quite different. My experiences would have led me down different paths in life and would have wound up making me a different me. Imagine, perhaps I would have turned out to become a pastor. Or a delinquent. Who knows?
I can only feel in this life like I 'made my own decisions'. Like I exerted my free will. And that my path, though determined by the sum total of my experiences since conception and the make up from my DNA, is my path. After all, while my surroundings influenced me completely; they did not do so consciously of what that would lead to. Just like my 'decisions' influence everyone else, but don't make everyone do what I want them to do. I do not have that insight and I do not have that power. I am neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine). How do you know that two additional siblings would have changed anything in your life other than your interaction with them. They wouldn't control or make decisions about how you view things. Now I'm not saying that they would not have influenced you in different ways and those influences might have changed some of your decisions they very well could have. What I'm saying is there is no evidence to show they could have changed who you are and there is no evidence to say they couldn't have changed your life, your life would be what you make of it regarding or regardless of the influence of others. No matter how it turned out it would be you and the only you there would be, you can't be any number of out comes, there is only one you and one outcome. Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else. Surely you do not believe your DNA can control your mind thus controlling your decisions, if this were true we would not be responsible for our actions and that would mean all criminals would not be in control of their actions but a victim of their own DNA. You have control of yourself and can chose freely.

Which leads us back to god. God, if it's omnipotent, could have made any choice it wanted in creating the universe. Every subtle detail that it could have chosen, was to its disposal. There were infinite options with infinite details. And from each option with each detail, god would have known exactly what kind of world and people would spring from that. It would know every detail, every thought, every 'decision' that would flow from thereon out. If god didn't; god wouldn't be omniscient.
Which means that with it's 'prime choice' it decided all that would come to pass.

What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation, you are stating an idea and not facts, you are assuming God's omnipotence is something outside of what it is, being all powerful means that God can make/create what He sees a right. Let me ask you a question, how many times did God create in the six days He took to make this universe? Here's another one, how do you know that anything else would have worked other than what God made? Next you are confusing God's omniscience's (all knowledge) with being all knowing, the two are not necessarily the same thing. God's ability to know how all things will turn out is due to His omnipresence (all seeing). None of this says God has controlled what will happen to each individual throughout time. Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual.

And here is the kicker. If it had chosen to create a different universe from the infinite possibilities, that would still be the case. It could never escape making all our decisions for us, in advance, because it has complete control and understanding of the entire universe it chose to create, down to the smallest detail. And with that power and knowledge it sets up the entire 'system', from an infinite amount of possibilities; choosing the one in which happens what it wants to happen, down to the smallest thing.
If it had created a universe in which our experiences, Godscreated, were mirrored and I started living for god and you lost your religion; it would have known that in advance as well. And such a world is one of the infinite possibilities it could have chosen from. And in another one, your words would have convinced me to join you in your passion for the lord. And in yet another one we and all the other people in the world, throughout all of time, would have come to revere your god . And in that world the people would have just as much 'free will' as you and I have now. Because in that world too, your god would have known exactly how his 'prime choice' would effect everyone and everything and what it would lead to, down to the smallest detail.

 Again you are presenting an assumption as factual when there is nothing to say that there could have been a different creation. You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. Another question, why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son? 
 God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do, choice is our only destiny. Now am I saying that God want step in and do what needs to be done for His glory no, take pharaoh for example. God says He will step in and stop man from destroying this world, why, because that is God's right, to destroy the evil that Satan and man let ruin His creation. 
 There is no other universe nor could there be, we have what is and what we have made of it and it all happened this horrific way even though we have an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, He valued our free will to chose or reject Him at the expense of the perfect creation. God did know what it meant to create the only universe that could possibly be where man had the freedom to choose between God and or himself, this is what God wanted a world in which men could chose to love Him.

GC

Sorry if my reply seems late. I've not had a lot of time.
Also, I don't want to start cutting up your post, or I'll never see it formatted right. i've decided to mark a few segments and  respond to them below.

"God is also omnipresent": Aye. So it is said. You are the second to point this out to me, as I've presented what I feel to be a conundrum. (Unless you were also the first, I forget who I've had this discussion with, before.) I'll ask you, however, as I did to the other person prior: why does this matter? I left it out because it doesn't alter the equation. We both agree on the omni-traits I mentioned. And I only need those to present the 'problem'. (If you even want to call it that.) Unless omni-presence somehow undoes that, I don't see it's relevancy in this discussion. You mention it, but, unless I am mistaken, you do not point out why it undoes what I see to be a 'problem'. You only mention that it makes the other omni-traits omni-traits. And then you put something you really ought to expand on, which I marked in cursive. If it's vague to you, imagine what it's to me.

"Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so": I didn't mention rules. Rules laid out, perhaps by like the bible, would be part of that religion. I'm just trying to defer to logic. If that's what you call 'a rule', than that logic must be wrong. But why?  (Let's see in your next line.)

"Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent.": You and I seem to have different notions of 'omniscience'. See, I thought it was being 'all-knowing'. Not, 'knowing the basic principles of something but not the rest'. It's either 'all' or it's 'not all'. And if it's the latter, we can put this to a rest right here. My point only points out contradictions if  people claim to believe in an all-knowing and all-powerfull god, which apparently, you don't. If I understand you correctly, here.


"God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. " : So what do you mean? God willingly shuts off his omniscience? His omnipotence? If so, however. His omniscience would allow for him to know what he'd do once he's shut of his onmiscience, before he shut it off. Meaning he'd still act in according to his prior omniscience. This doesn't solve anything, for as far as I can see. See, that's the horrible thing about omni-traits, when you think about it. They are all-encompassing. That's the point. There are no ways around them.

Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. : You and I seem to have different notions of 'omnipotence'. See, I thought it was being 'all-powerful'. Not, being powerfull enough to do something really great, but only that one thing.'. It's either 'all' or it's 'not all'. And if it's the latter, we can put this to a rest right here. My point only points out contradictions if  people claim to believe in an all-knowing and all-powerfull god, which apparently, you don't. If I understand you correctly, here. (Sorry for the copy-job, but it's basically the same point here.)
I would like to point out that he would have known how to achieve said plan perfectly and had the means to do so effortlessly. But I feel like I'm repeating myself too much, perhaps.

"
You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine)": No, not really. what I was getting at is that decisions made by other people that influence your life, don't willingly dictate everything that happen in your life because the makers of those choices are on the one hand also influenced by other's choices and the way the world is, and on the other are not all-knowing nor all-powerful.

"Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else.": And so, in the smallest of ways, you and I have influenced one another. The effect it will have is marginal, for both of us, I'm sure. But what now if I know exactly what this interaction would lead to, small though it may be? What if I knew in advance what my words would alter the way you feel or think or how many mili-seconds you'd spent reading them before hurrying to catch you bus or how it might play in the back of your head (even in the faintest of ways) as you do your job. What if, through omniscience, I knew exactly what to say or do, even in the smallest of ways to make this smallest of changes in your view of the world: to plant a seed I would know would grow and bloom at a moment I've foreseen in time that it would. And what if I had the ability to say or do any of those things through my omniscience... Would that still be the same?
I don't have those traits, so I can't be said to willingly determine your entire life. But I'm not the problem here.

"What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation ": God's supposed omnipotence says that. Please, make up your mind. Is he all-powerful, or isn't he? And I suppose in the further paragraph you are trying to play at that this is a 'right' and 'perfect' creation, as you've alluded to before? That would just make god's vision of 'perfect' morally bankrupt. Because if he is all-powerful and all-knowing that would mean he could forsee and do the things I suggested. You still haven't explained properly, as far as I can see, why he couldn't. He could create a world in which there wasn't ebola or or in which people weren't born with schizophrenia or sociopathic tendencies or in which a hitler would walk down the dark path he walked down. All these things could have been avoided. All humans could have come to love this supposed perfect god. It was in his potential to create such a world. He chose not to. The results, which he knew in advance and decided on, are therefor on him. Simple. Really. It is that simple.

"Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual." : I did mark that word myself with  ' ', meaning that I don't mean 'decision' in quite the same way we otherwise use it. If you want we could call such a thing a 'fake decision' or a 'coogle' for all I care.

"You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. ": No, I don't. I don't expect to ever, either. As I don't think he is real. I'm just saying that if he were to exist as an an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything, then ... See? I'm just trying to point out where an intellectually honest walk starting from your baseless claims and assumptions would lead to. At least, intellectually honest for as far as I can tell.

"why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son?" : Exactly. This is not a point in your favor.

"God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do" : That, my friend, is to me a logical fallacy. God knew how everything would go when he created it with his unlimited potential, yet not all of it is planned. Omniscient, or not omniscient. Omnipotent or not omnipotent. The base assumption for your deity is yours to make; it is your god after all. But please, stay consistent. And definitely within the same sentence.