(March 31, 2018 at 4:31 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(March 30, 2018 at 11:31 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  God a crux, not hardly. God guides us and enables us to make good decisions in our lives, He never forces us to make a decision.

GC

If there is a god, of course. Which is wher we differ of course.
And depending on the kind of god you believe in. Goes to say. I didn't realise it at the time. But the god i used to believe in wouldn't allow for guidance, it'd be total control over our fate and will.

God would never do that, he created us to make choices, we see this with Adam and Eve. God taught them and gave them guidance but allowed them to make a choice that change creation and the future of mankind. Jesus said I have come to give the blind sight, meaning we can have that spiritual sight if we desire it, it's not forced upon us.

GC

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(March 31, 2018 at 5:39 pm)*Deidre* Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 1:10 am)Godscreated Wrote: Thank you for asking, I've been a Christian and active in God's work for many years. I grew up going to church but it was later (mid twenties) that I came to Christ as my savior. It was even later that I took what I had committed to seriously and it was then that God changed my life in many wonderful ways. Living for Him gave me real purpose in life and God then gave me the personal evidence to know who He was and why he did the things recorded in the scriptures. Believe me this has brought a peace to my life that is unexplainable and gives me hope of a life eternally better.

Why have you left Christianity if you don't mind telling me?

GC

I've shared it here before, but the abbreviated version is that I just gradually turned away from prayer life, the Bible, and really believing what I had been indoctrinated to believe. I actually believe in Jesus' existence, and many spiritual values that can be found throughout different belief systems. I just don't follow ''religion'' anymore. I've come to my own understanding of God, and the universe. I have a lot of peace that I didn't have before as a Christian or as an atheist. That said, atheism makes logical sense to me. I was an atheist for a few years, that's when I first came to this site, shortly after I left Christianity.

So when you were a kid, you kind of just went through the motions?

 Didn't even do much of that, God worked with me for years before I came to understand what it meant to have that personal relationship with Him. God never gave up on me and I knew He was there reaching out to help me despite my selfish ways. God loves us and will always work with the willing and stand beside the rebellious to guide them home.
 I'm not sure how you can have and/ or live a spiritual life without God. I know the other world religions say they can live a spiritual life without the God of the Bible, but to me it's an impossibility because without the God of the Bible we would have no God. I think many Christians become complacent because they practice religion instead of living in a personal living relationship with God. Going through the motions will only dull the senses and lead to an apathetic life. Being involved in your own life with God brings a life fulfilled and full of a happiness of serving others for the glory of God. Seeing people appreciate you because God has chosen to work through you for them brings a great feeling of being needed and loved.

GC

(April 1, 2018 at 12:38 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 4:31 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: If there is a god, of course. Which is wher we differ of course.
And depending on the kind of god you believe in. Goes to say. I didn't realise it at the time. But the god i used to believe in wouldn't allow for guidance, it'd be total control over our fate and will.

God would never do that, he created us to make choices, we see this with Adam and Eve. God taught them and gave them guidance but allowed them to make a choice that change creation and the future of mankind. Jesus said I have come to give the blind sight, meaning we can have that spiritual sight if we desire it, it's not forced upon us.

GC

Well, The god I believed in was an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything, so it was incompatibel with that. He would have decided in advance what we would want.
Also, i would have hoped that such a wise and powerful god made fleshwould have managed to reach much more people and left Some actual guidance concrete enough that not everyone could interpret it in their own way and have it suit their preëxisting notions.

Sorry deirdre, seems like we're going off thread a bit here.

(April 1, 2018 at 2:28 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(April 1, 2018 at 12:38 am)Godscreated Wrote: God would never do that, he created us to make choices, we see this with Adam and Eve. God taught them and gave them guidance but allowed them to make a choice that change creation and the future of mankind. Jesus said I have come to give the blind sight, meaning we can have that spiritual sight if we desire it, it's not forced upon us.

GC

Well, The god I believed in was an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything, so it was incompatibel with that. He would have decided in advance what we would want.
Also, i would have hoped that such a wise and powerful god made fleshwould have managed to reach much more people and left Some actual guidance concrete enough that not everyone could interpret it in their own way and have it suit their preëxisting notions.

Sorry deirdre, seems like we're going off thread a bit here.

 No I don't think we're off thread on the contrary I see us on topic. Tell me this, why would an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God want to decide what we would want?
Where would that benefit Him? Where would love come from for Him? How could He nurture us and why would He have sent Christ to redeem us?
People would have interpreted God's words to suit them no matter what He said, why, because many are far to selfish to want anything other than what pleases them. Some would just do it to be in control but then that's just another part of being selfish isn't it. What we are suppose to do is ask God the Holy Spirit to guide us in the word so we can find God's truth and follow it in service to Christ. Most people today would rather glorify themselves than to glorify God who has given them everything. No God doesn't want to control us He wants to love us, which He does, and be loved by us. Sadly most people only want what they can get from Him and when they don't they abandon Him for themselves. We humans can be a sad lot and I do not know why because through God our savior we have everything to gain.

GC

(April 1, 2018 at 3:23 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(April 1, 2018 at 2:28 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Well, The god I believed in was an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything, so it was incompatibel with that. He would have decided in advance what we would want.
Also, i would have hoped that such a wise and powerful god made fleshwould have managed to reach much more people and left Some actual guidance concrete enough that not everyone could interpret it in their own way and have it suit their preëxisting notions.

Sorry deirdre, seems like we're going off thread a bit here.

 No I don't think we're off thread on the contrary I see us on topic. Tell me this, why would an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God want to decide what we would want?
Where would that benefit Him? Where would love come from for Him? How could He nurture us and why would He have sent Christ to redeem us?
People would have interpreted God's words to suit them no matter what He said, why, because many are far to selfish to want anything other than what pleases them. Some would just do it to be in control but then that's just another part of being selfish isn't it. What we are suppose to do is ask God the Holy Spirit to guide us in the word so we can find God's truth and follow it in service to Christ. Most people today would rather glorify themselves than to glorify God who has given them everything. No God doesn't want to control us He wants to love us, which He does, and be loved by us. Sadly most people only want what they can get from Him and when they don't they abandon Him for themselves. We humans can be a sad lot and I do not know why because through God our savior we have everything to gain.

GC

'Want' would have nothing to do with it. It would be logically impossible for him not to.
And the idea of sending christ to redeem us, in itself a horrible concept imho, would become ridiculous.
I could go deeper, but this is about two different points of view. We can hash that out, if you like. But Deidre made this topic to share things that changed us.
Do you want me to explain myself? I'll make a seperate thread if you do.

You can feel free to share here, if you like. I think exchanges like this can be productive, if we avoid ad homs, name calling and those types of things.

Alright Deirdre, with your permission.

I'll put this as simply as I can. Not because I think I must speak in simple terms for Godscreated. I'm sure (s)he's an intelligent person. It's just that in my experience in explaining this to others, confusion tends to rise.

A god that is omnipotent, omniscient and created the world we live in has complete control over everything that has happened, happens and will happen. It knows the choices we'll make in our lives and the results those will yield. If not, the god is not omniscient. But, as I've heard it countered, the god knowing of our decisisions in advance does not mean they are made without our free will. And that would be true and I could up to some point accept that, if he were not endowed with other omni-traits.

See, the way I see it; god supposedly created the universe. And not only that, because this god is all powerful; it could have created it's creation (the universe) in any way it wanted to. The ways it could have created the creation is not only this world. Or else it's not an omnipotent god. If the god is limited to a single universe it can create only in a single way, it is not an unlimited being. So there have to be an infinite universes it could have created. By creating this one, it made the prime choice.

Such a prime choice in itself does not take away free will of those that come after. My parents deciding to have only three children instead of five, for example, does influence my entire life. But what it does not do is make me 'feel' like my decisions throughout my life are determined in advance. I still feel like I have my free will. However I do imagine that if my parents had given me two younger siblings, my life would have been quite different. My experiences would have led me down different paths in life and would have wound up making me a different me. Imagine, perhaps I would have turned out to become a pastor. Or a delinquent. Who knows?
I can only feel in this life like I 'made my own decisions'. Like I exerted my free will. And that my path, though determined by the sum total of my experiences since conception and the make up from my DNA, is my path. After all, while my surroundings influenced me completely; they did not do so consciously of what that would lead to. Just like my 'decisions' influence everyone else, but don't make everyone do what I want them to do. I do not have that insight and I do not have that power. I am neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

Which leads us back to god. God, if it's omnipotent, could have made any choice it wanted in creating the universe. Every subtle detail that it could have chosen, was to its disposal. There were infinite options with infinite details. And from each option with each detail, god would have known exactly what kind of world and people would spring from that. It would know every detail, every thought, every 'decision' that would flow from thereon out. If god didn't; god wouldn't be omniscient.
Which means that with it's 'prime choice' it decided all that would come to pass.

And here is the kicker. If it had chosen to create a different universe from the infinite possibilities, that would still be the case. It could never escape making all our decisions for us, in advance, because it has complete control and understanding of the entire universe it chose to create, down to the smallest detail. And with that power and knowledge it sets up the entire 'system', from an infinite amount of possibilities; choosing the one in which happens what it wants to happen, down to the smallest thing.
If it had created a universe in which our experiences, Godscreated, were mirrored and I started living for god and you lost your religion; it would have known that in advance as well. And such a world is one of the infinite possibilities it could have chosen from. And in another one, your words would have convinced me to join you in your passion for the lord. And in yet another one we and all the other people in the world, throughout all of time, would have come to revere your god . And in that world the people would have just as much 'free will' as you and I have now. Because in that world too, your god would have known exactly how his 'prime choice' would effect everyone and everything and what it would lead to, down to the smallest detail.

I think we all have expectations of who or what we think a god should be like. Not everyone's are the same, that doesn't negate that your feelings are real, Mr. Obvious or that mine are, or that GC's is. It is a matter of perspective. I think the problem with any religion at all, is when it tries to push itself onto others, tries to force its way into people's lives, and that will always be wrong. I don't consider myself religious really, anymore. But, I have come back to belief and for me, it gives me a sense of peace. I think it's a matter of perspective and expectations.

(April 2, 2018 at 12:08 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(April 1, 2018 at 3:23 am)Godscreated Wrote:  No I don't think we're off thread on the contrary I see us on topic. Tell me this, why would an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God want to decide what we would want?
Where would that benefit Him? Where would love come from for Him? How could He nurture us and why would He have sent Christ to redeem us?
People would have interpreted God's words to suit them no matter what He said, why, because many are far to selfish to want anything other than what pleases them. Some would just do it to be in control but then that's just another part of being selfish isn't it. What we are suppose to do is ask God the Holy Spirit to guide us in the word so we can find God's truth and follow it in service to Christ. Most people today would rather glorify themselves than to glorify God who has given them everything. No God doesn't want to control us He wants to love us, which He does, and be loved by us. Sadly most people only want what they can get from Him and when they don't they abandon Him for themselves. We humans can be a sad lot and I do not know why because through God our savior we have everything to gain.

GC

'Want' would have nothing to do with it. It would be logically impossible for him not to.
And the idea of sending christ to redeem us, in itself a horrible concept imho, would become ridiculous.
I could go deeper, but this is about two different points of view. We can hash that out, if you like. But Deidre made this topic to share things that changed us.
Do you want me to explain myself? I'll make a seperate thread if you do.

Yes, do.

GC

He did. A few posts up.

(April 3, 2018 at 9:22 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(April 2, 2018 at 12:08 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: 'Want' would have nothing to do with it. It would be logically impossible for him not to.
And the idea of sending christ to redeem us, in itself a horrible concept imho, would become ridiculous.
I could go deeper, but this is about two different points of view. We can hash that out, if you like. But Deidre made this topic to share things that changed us.
Do you want me to explain myself? I'll make a seperate thread if you do.

Yes, do.

GC

please see response #56
Deirdre agreed with you on this discussion being okay for this tread