Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2

[Catholic_Lady]

Part of me though, wants that to be allowed so the baker's racism can be exposed and his busyness boycotted and go down in flames.

This didn’t happen in the past though, and there’s no reason to think it would happen today. Racists have their supporters, and often people won’t care or can’t boycott. If you live in small town America and there is one grocery store, owned by a known racist, it’s difficult to depend on any white families to boycott his business, because they unfortunately rely on it. The civil rights act was brought about to try and prevent this kind of behavior in the first place, and it worked. Business owners cannot legally discriminate towards people based on skin color anymore.

I need to get going, but do definitely want to come back and talk about this bc I am on the fence about it and can see pros and cons and arguments to both sides, depending on which extreme is taken.

Maybe a real quick response would be that marriage itself is considered a religious sacramental ceremony to a lot of people, and so they have certain beliefs surrounding it. Particularly that it is a union between one man and one woman, and that's it. Graduation doesn't have ties to any sort of deep seeded sacramental or religious beliefs, neither does it make sense that it would. So I would call BS on the person who tried to pull that card.

The problem is marriage is considered a religious ceremony by every religion, and it has deep societal ties that predate most religions. Whether you approve of it or not, marriage is now a legal institution as well. You can get married without having to set foot in a religious building.

Now, wedding cake doesn’t have any religious connotations to my knowledge. Why should providing a wedding cake, or any catering for that matter, even come close to entwining with a potentially sacred ceremony?

Or to put it another way, how is the ceremony legitimized in the eyes of a believer who opposes the religious / sacred nature of the event by the presence of a cake.

To add to your point about it being a religious ceremony. Should this baker be allowed to refuse a cake to a straight couple who are atheists? Or who have married before (assuming he is Catholic)? Also, if he does provide cake to atheist couples, or non-Catholic couples, does it change your opinion if he still refuses to provide cake to gay couples? That is, if he is clearly only discriminating against gay couples, should that be legal?

I can understand a minister/pastor  being allowed to deny the actual service by the way. I don't think anti-gay priests should be forced to perform same-sex marriages, nor do I think Catholic priests should be forced to perform marriages of previously married people. However there is a gargantuan difference between a priest, who performs a vital role in the ceremony, and a baker, who provides the fucking dessert.

Let me make it clear that I'm not saying I agree with refusing to make a gay wedding cake. Only with the freedom to legally refuse to. Personally, I would still make that cake. I was only differentiating a college graduation with a wedding, and explaining why refusal to service a cake to one stems from pure racism against the person graduating, while the other may stem from legitimate moral/religious beliefs about marriage itself being between one man and one woman. And that is because marriage has for a very long time, and still has, strong associations to religion... while a college graduation has not. So, right or wrong, it makes sense that a person may have a moral/religious opinions on marriage itself. Graduation? Not so much.  

So if anyone tried to say they were refusing to make a cake for a black person's graduation party on the grounds that "black graduations" (which isn't even a thing) is somehow against their moral and/or religious beliefs, I would call BS. I would say that baker is discriminating against the person, and not the event itself, since there is no association between graduation and religion.

That's all I was saying. Whether or not making a cake for an event necessarily means you "support" or "take part" in the event, or whether there is any connotation there, I guess depends on how the person themselves feel about it. Like I said in another post, personally I can think of some events I would not want to make cakes for because it would in fact make me feel like I was contributing in some way to something I was deeply opposed to.  

To add to your point about it being a religious ceremony. Should this baker be allowed to refuse a cake to a straight couple who are atheists? Or who have married before (assuming he is Catholic)? Also, if he does provide cake to atheist couples, or non-Catholic couples, does it change your opinion if he still refuses to provide cake to gay couples? That is, if he is clearly only discriminating against gay couples, should that be legal?

To people who have been married before, yes, they should be allowed to refuse to service their wedding. Though I don't know why a couple would walk in and mention that this is their second time getting married, but if they did, yes, I think legally the baker should be allowed to refuse. As for the rest, as far as I know, it isn't against any religion for atheists or people who are not of a particular religion to get married. So I would probably lump this in with the graduation scenario. The question would have to be asked, is the refusal based on the people themselves? Or on a real moral/religious opposition towards the event itself? 
Perhaps the best way to handle completely off the wall scenarios like the ones above would be to take them to court and let them figure out whether there is legitimate religious and or moral beliefs behind it. 
Just as we can think up scenarios where a baker refuses to make a cake for a black person's graduation party, we can also think up scenarios where a baker refuses to make a cake for a white supremacist gathering. I am curious to know where you would draw the line and how you think this should be handled, legally.

[edited because I don't proof read before posting lol]