Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 24, 2024, 4:02 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
(August 21, 2018 at 12:33 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: ...thank you for bringing more dishonest arguments to our attention.

Jor, I feel no need for insults in order to state my position. I believe there are things on which we can agree. Even if you still do not share my conclusions and we disagree passionately that does not mean I consider you are stupid or dishonest.

First, I think we agree that our thought processes are not immediately apparent. While our minds are adapted to generally present the world to us accurately, it nevertheless makes mistakes. And not just optical illusions. The mind tricks us, often concealing our true motivations from ourselves, misinterpreting others, seeing significance where there is none, etc. That is the human condition, life demands that we try to make sense of the world and our place in it while at the same time the true nature of both external and internal reality are not immediately obvious.

I believe, contrary to the majority opinion on AF, that people have an sensus divinitas and that this inner voice is not false; but rather, truly reflects the presence of the Divine. In my opinion various logical demonstrations, like the 5 Ways, and empirical data, like the Gospel narratives, support this interpretation. These are subjective beliefs that inform my values such as the existential equality of every human being and the inherent dignity of every person. These things were are not immediately obvious within Greco-Roman societies or the surrounding Germanic tribes. Those ideas were latent in Christianity and slowly came to fruition in Western Europe and which I accept as the motivating principles of the American and French Revolutions. This is one of the main reasons why freedom of religion and speech are so highly valued.

Likewise, many people passionately, believe that the experience of strong sexual desires accurately reflect particular deep seated truths about the psyche that are not necessarily connected with one’s biology, specifically, that the subjective feeling of being a man or woman is not connected to the binary sexual biology they share with all other mammals. Another belief is that sexual desires are indicative of an inflexible part of personal identity. Some people support the veracity of this subjective feeling with various medical studies of brain structures, cultural acceptance in various society, self-reports & personal testimonies, etc. As with sensus divinitas, the sense of one’s own sexual nature is not obviously related to the conclusions about reality drawn from it.

In both cases what is immediately apparent, the sensus divinitas and the sense of one’s sexual nature, may or may not accurately reflect what is really going on. At the ends of Orwell’s 1984, we find the protagonist, Winston, being asked to deny what he knows to be true. The torturer holds up four fingers and insists that Winston say that there are five fingers. Even when Winston capitulates and says there are five fingers, just to end his pain, his tormentor continues the torture until Winston’s mind is so broken that he starts to actually see five fingers instead of the four he percieves. Most people see in this story an accurate depiction of how totalitarian systems attempt to inculcate conformity of thought, even if it is contrary to one's perceptions of reality, to maintain power. Fascism demands that people deny the equality and dignity of out-groups. Communism demands that people deny their individuality and personal agency.

According to cherished American values, citizens do not demand conformity of thought nor do we expect others to behave contrary to the convictions that inform their values and give meaning to their lives. It is an interesting and telling fact that the motto on the very first coins minted in the United Stated was “Mind Your Business.”

As I see it, the strong feelings of both the sensus divinitas and sexual identity make the subsequent apparent beliefs about them both sincerely held convictions. And just as the principles of human dignity and equality are latent in Christianity so also the principles of inflexible sexual identity and the separation of gender from biological sex inform particular principles of gender equality. IMHO the political question is not which sincerely held beliefs better represent the underlying reality; but rather, how as a nation we can balance the interests of both. I believe the wrong way to approach the problem is to demand that one party deny their perception of reality to conform to the political aims of the other. That is the clear path to tyranny presented in Orwell’s 1984.

In my estimation, conservative Christians have come to accept that some people truly believe that their gender is distinct from their biological sex and that how they live their lives is their own business. I also believe that the radical left has yet to accept that other people are entitled to their own opinions about the relationship between Mankind and its Creator and to live accordingly. They go beyond the reasonable request for tolerance and demand affirmation. That is the specific issue at hand in the most recent Masterpiece Cake issue; can you compel someone to affirm things contrary to their perception of reality, i.e. like saying there are five fingers when they see only four.

How so?

I think we both agree physical things have no inherent meaning. As such color has no gender but by mere convention our culture considers blue masculine and pink feminine. As such a pink cake with blue frosting has no inherent meaning. Nevertheless colors can convey meaning, just as lighting a flag on fire or kneeling during the national anthem do. Even the simplest of acts, like the choice of a font, can be enormously significant. What things mean, regardless or how subtle they are conveyed is important. To deny that is to minimize the role of how meaning informs our actions.

Although we cannot know for sure, if the lawyer, who by all appearances was transgender, had asked for the exact same cake design, but said that it was for his or her nephew and that the design would reflect the boy’s preferences for pastel colors, then presumably, Philips would have made the cake according to specifications and as such be compliant with Colorado law. Or not, in which case he would have been declining service based on the person, not on the design, and run afoul of the law.

But that is not what happened.

The lawyer asked for a specific design and assigned meaning to that design, a meaning intended to offend the baker. Fulfilling the lawyer’s request would have required the Christian baker to accept the lawyer’s meaning and participate in expressing it. Having been made aware of the intended meaning the baker cannot back away back away from it and tell himself that it is just insignificant pink and blue frosting. That would be self-deception, i.e. the same as saying that five fingers when you see four.

To enshrine self-deception into law is textbook tyranny. In a famous example, the Chinese Communists forced USAF prisoners to repeatedly write things like “Communism has made China a great nation,” and “American is an Imperialist oppressor.” At first the POW’s said, sure I’ll write whatever you want, I’ll just know in my heart that those things aren’t true. However, the insidious nature of the discrepancy between what they were forced to profess and what they actually believed broke them down until ultimately they started to believe the things they wrote.

Jor, your point is technically correct. The SCOTUS only found that the State of Colorado violated Philips civil rights by acting out of malice towards his sincerely held religious conviction. They punted on the 1st amendment issue. Ultimately, I believe, the case will turn on a truly philosophical issue about how meaning is assigned and politically whether or not people must affirm and profess messages contrary to their sincerely held convictions.
<insert profound quote here>
Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2 - by Neo-Scholastic - August 21, 2018 at 12:45 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Gog Magog civil war with the west WinterHold 37 3307 July 20, 2023 at 10:19 pm
Last Post: Anomalocaris
  Women's Rights Lek 314 28748 April 25, 2023 at 5:22 am
Last Post: The Architect Of Fate
  Colorado shooting, 5 dead. brewer 0 381 December 28, 2021 at 8:11 pm
Last Post: brewer
  New Zealand - you gotta be this old to have rights. onlinebiker 123 10246 December 13, 2021 at 5:18 pm
Last Post: The Architect Of Fate
  J.K. Rowling had to return civil rights award Silver 68 6855 October 16, 2020 at 10:39 am
Last Post: Rank Stranger
  [Serious] G-20 leaders, don’t forget the women’s rights advocates rotting in Saudi prisons WinterHold 47 3516 September 23, 2020 at 6:26 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Ghanem Almasarir, Saudi Human Rights Activist attacked in London WinterHold 3 790 October 12, 2018 at 4:02 am
Last Post: WinterHold
  Fuck Your Property Rights, You Scumbag Bastard Minimalist 0 587 October 1, 2018 at 5:20 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  Supreme Court Rules In Favor Of Colorado Baker A Theist 371 60295 June 14, 2018 at 2:41 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Did civil war begin in Saudi Arabia? WinterHold 6 899 April 22, 2018 at 9:31 pm
Last Post: Minimalist



Users browsing this thread: 22 Guest(s)