Are there any Christian proselytizers left in this subforum?

[The Grand Nudger]

-But that's the whole game.  We go shot for shot trying to have difficult discussions until one of us starts slurring their words! 

Well, I'm sober now. We can can start round 2 if you want or just leave it at: "I value theists. You don't."

We might as well just leave it though. We don't see eye to eye. As a show of good faith, I won't even mention that MLK and Gandhi were both incredible human beings, whose work was heavily informed by their theistic outlook.

You value theism, I don't.  That mlk or ghandi (or anyone else) drew from their personally held faith is irrelevant to me and frankly, to the discussion, unless there could be no acheiving those things in the absence of the same faith.  Those are the achievements of men who happen to have had a faith, and most do.  Not the achievements of a faith through men.

For every MLK or Ghandi in the world....each selectively employing their faith to their own ends....I could find you a long list of pious assholes (and that's excluding that fact that both men were pious assholes in their own right - despite our latter day lionization of both). It's more than a little silly to confer the deference due to either man for their own achievements to whatever faith they happened to be born with. Had they reversed faiths or no faith, with respect to each other, what would the difference have been? I happen to be a gators fan. Would you do the same for any achievement in my life? Would you contend that the things I do add value to a college football franchise? Do my actions offer cogent countercomment on the shortcomings of the franchise?

Both men, hilariously, commented on the failures of religion and superstition. Each equally certain that they were doing it right and the others had it wrong. In this, and this is the well from which theistic asshattery springs, they were equals with those they criticized. Thank the gods they had better ideas than those other assholes, eh?