Christians vs Christians (yec)

[tackattack]

---

Using the word "wisdom", over and over - like a dim-witted schoolchild who hasn't learned what a thesaurus is - is not the same as teaching reason. What exactly is this "wisdom from above"?

Yeah, Bible is clear what that "wisdom" is 1 Corinthians 2:6-7, "Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God"

---

That's not a verse telling you what wisdom is, just how it's revealed.

---

The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. I define wisdom as sound application of knowledge, is that not how you define it?

That's one way to put it, I suppose. It's a fairly vague term, which may incorporate knowledge, experience, intelligence, good judgement, etc. I'd say it's mostly used to describe a quality, rather than a skill, or ability.

I would assume then that the "other" wisdom would be tainted, forced, harsh, not open to reason, full of conviction, biased and insincere.

...But still "sound application of knowledge"?

Should I also provide you with a link to verses about knowledge?

Hey, whatever you think may help your case. But keep in mind - I'm not easily impressed by folksy platitudes.

Listen, I understand the world is full of idealistic and unreasonable people and belief systems. Why do so many atheists assume that all faith is a blind faith without evidence, logic and reason?

Not necessarily "without". Often "despite". People's ability to rationalize and compartmentalize irrational beliefs, decisions and actions is widely known. And if some believers actually found logical and reasonable explanations to the problems most rational people have with religion - they are REALLY bad at communicating that logic. Otherwise - we'd all have been convinced by now.

As it stands - I've never met an atheist, or even a mildly irreligious person, who turned to religion without some sort of a personal - often traumatic - experience (like a loss of a loved one, going sober, mental breakdown, etc), which could perfectly explain their sudden need to believe. Logic and reason alone never seem to be enough to make leaps of faith...

Those are definitions it seems we can never seem to agree on. My point was to counter Fake Messiah's point in the Bible preaching anti-intellectualism. I'm certain there is a metric shit ton of believers that are just blinding doing what their parents taught them growing up for no reason other than, it's something to do. I realize that a lot of people like that, don't like to question their belief, and disapprove of questions from the children they teach. I saw tons of them growing up and in my church. Within that church and lots since, there have been those who encourage questioning, reason and belief.

Yes, I'm sure there are religious people, who encourage such things. But usually - in my experience at least - those people are a minority, they still expect you to reach the "correct" faith-based conclusions, after all your questioning, and have particular ways of interpreting and applying reason and logic. Calling creationism - for one example - "intelligent design" doesn't make it a science, a rational belief, or a worthwhile academic pursuit. You can call pouring over bronze age proverbs a pursuit of knowledge, but it's not likely to result in any kind of new practical solutions to modern problems. That's probably why many atheists believe religions promote anti-intellectualism.

No one I knew that buried their heads in the sand ever used the Bible to defend that belief, because the Bible actual says some really simple things like Proverbs 12:1 "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. "

Hmmm... Not so much "simple", as "simplistic". Yeah, as I said - antiquated folksy platitudes don't really do much for me. To each their own, I suppose.

---

Unfortunately, I'll probably have to agree that people promoting critical thinking in their faith are probably in the minority. I would say most people just accept it. Just because the minority might be the ones promoting a reasoned faith, doesn't mean that the rest are promoting blissful ignorance. More than likely, like most of society, people just go through their days and lives without thinking at all, just reacting and sometimes analyzing after the why.

I've never met an atheist, or even a mildly irreligious person, who was an anti-theist without some sort of a personal - often traumatic - experience (like a loss of a loved one, going sober, mental breakdown, etc), which could perfectly explain their sudden need to turn away from religion. </sarcasm> See that doesn't really work does it?

Wisdom, as mentioned is sound application of knowledge. You can be knowledgeable about complex math, but wisdom is knowing you don't need differential topology to solve 2+2=4 . Similarly, applying conventional worldly knowledge to the spiritual, interpersonal and supernatural isn't wise. Knowledge applied with bias, insincerity, harshness or that are illogical could still be knowledge, but what the verse was saying was that they're not a "good" foundation to apply that knowledge.

Logic and reason alone never seem to be enough to make leaps of faith because we don't do things in a vacuum. We are complex social creatures and have many reasons why we would or wouldn't do/believe something. Getting to faith doesn't necessarily exclude logic and reason and no one has proven that point to me yet.