(January 10, 2019 at 10:10 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(January 10, 2019 at 9:57 am)Brian37 Wrote: Bad analogy, JFK and John Lennon were real and provable people. To die, you have to be born. Apollo, Allah, God, Yahweh, were products of human imagination. Those deities were not born, they were concocted by human imagination.

Actually, it's a pretty good analogy. Arguing about which imaginary friend is 'better' misses the point that 'imaginary' has no gradations. Same with dead.

Boru

Don't make me post an ABBA video!

I'm sorry, I don't get it.

To physically die in reality, you have to physically be born in reality. JFK and Lennon were real. They can be proven to be born, and we can literally not just with paperwork, pictures, video and news articles, prove they lived, we can take DNA from relatives that survived them and match them to their existence. The same cannot be said for claims of invisible beings.

I get the "my imaginary friend is better than yours", is a silly argument. I just don't see the parallel with provable humans we have evidence that existed.

(January 10, 2019 at 10:58 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 10, 2019 at 10:10 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Actually, it's a pretty good analogy. Arguing about which imaginary friend is 'better' misses the point that 'imaginary' has no gradations. Same with dead.

Boru

Don't make me post an ABBA video!

I'm sorry, I don't get it.

To physically die in reality, you have to physically be born in reality. JFK and Lennon were real. They can be proven to be born, and we can literally not just with paperwork, pictures, video and news articles, prove they lived, we can take DNA from relatives that survived them and match them to their existence. The same cannot be said for claims of invisible beings.

I get the "my imaginary friend is better than yours", is a silly argument. I just don't see the parallel with provable humans we have evidence that existed.

Because the analogy isn't whether Lennon and Kennedy ever existed.  It isn't even that they are dead, but which one is more dead. 

Boru

I’m one of those people who believe Jesus was born, lived and died. But I don’t believe that creation and evolution have to exclude the other. When I look at my twin nieces or drive through a certain area where I live, I think to myself that there was no way this happened by some cosmic accident or reaction. There had to be intelligent design behind it. But I also see the results of things growing,changing and adapting over millions of years. Science and religion can actually compliment each other. For example, there may be examples of medical miracles, but the majority occur because God created thinking, intelligent individuals who make breakthroughs in medicine. Scientists and theists don’t have to fight. Theists need to accept that science is today’s miracles!

(January 14, 2019 at 10:41 am)HelenMaxxeen Wrote: Science and religion can actually compliment each other. For example, there may be examples of medical miracles, but the majority occur because God created thinking, intelligent individuals who make breakthroughs in medicine.

If god created thinking, intelligent individuals--as you say-- then why does the Bible (aka word of God) preach anti-intelectualism? There is pronounced tendency of the Bible to denounce intellect, thought, and what the New Testament refers to as human wisdom.
Like:

Ecclesiastes 6:8, "What hath the wise more than the fool";

1 Corinthians 1:22-23, "Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles";

1 Corinthians 4:10 "We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ";

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 "I [Paul] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified";

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 "Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God."

Christianity seems very much like a philosophy in which one of its prime propagandists openly advocates becoming a fool.

1 Corinthians 1:19-21 "It is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart. Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom";

1 Corinthians 2:13-14, "We impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned";

1 Corinthians 2:4, "And my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom"

Ecclesiastes 1:18, "In much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

(January 10, 2019 at 9:29 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(January 10, 2019 at 9:24 am)Brian37 Wrote: When an atheist watches theists debate each other to many, it is like watching a Star Wars fan debate a Star Trek fan.

More like watching two Star Trek fans debating whether Kirk or Picard was the better captain. 

Boru

Yeah, everybody knows it's The Sisko!

If you really believe the Bible is against seeking wisdom and doesn't teach reason, you got some skewed views.
Link to Verses
Out of the many verses about knowledge and wisdom I like:
James 3:13-18  ESV
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. ...


Secondly, Nomad, that's emphatically wrong. Benjamin Sisko was never a captain of a ship or enterprise and thus isn't eligible for the contest. Real captains boldly go, not sit in their little space station. Even Janeway was better than that

(January 15, 2019 at 5:26 am)tackattack Wrote: If you really believe the Bible is against seeking wisdom and doesn't teach reason, you got some skewed views.
Link to Verses
Out of the many verses about knowledge and wisdom I like:
James 3:13-18  ESV
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. ...

Using the word "wisdom", over and over - like a dim-witted schoolchild who hasn't learned what a thesaurus is - is not the same as teaching reason. What exactly is this "wisdom from above"? And what is this other kind of "wisdom" - "earthly, unspiritual[sic], demonic" - which is characterized by "bitter jealousy and selfish ambition", boasting and being "false to the truth"? Are we sure we're using the right word here, because all of that has very little to do with how we define wisdom, let alone rationality/reason. It's mostly vague drivel, on which believers can and do impose their own meaning.

It seems to me, that this passage doesn't encourage seeking wisdom, or teaches using reason, but mostly advocates for "being nice" and obeying authorities (presumably religious, since it's the bible, although in those times the distinction wasn't very clear).

But hey - since the bible is supposed to be chock-full of these, I'm sure you just chose a bad example. Better luck next time.

Quote:Secondly, Nomad, that's emphatically wrong. Benjamin Sisko was never a captain of a ship or enterprise and thus isn't eligible for the contest. Real captains boldly go, not sit in their little space station. Even Janeway was better than that

Au contraire, mon frere.  Sisko, after the Battle Of Deep Space 9, was given command of the Defiant for about three months, and did rather well against both Cardassian and Jem'Hadar forces.  This was only one of several of Sisko's line commands.

NEVER try to out-nerd me, pal. 

Boru

The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. I define wisdom as sound application of knowledge, is that not how you define it?

I would assume then that the "other" wisdom would be tainted, forced, harsh, not open to reason, full of conviction, biased and insincere.

Should I also provide you with a link to verses about knowledge?

Listen, I understand the world is full of idealistic and unreasonable people and belief systems. Why do so many atheists assume that all faith is a blind faith without evidence, logic and reason? Those are definitions it seems we can never seem to agree on. My point was to counter Fake Messiah's point in the Bible preaching anti-intellectualism. I'm certain there is a metric shit ton of believers that are just blinding doing what their parents taught them growing up for no reason other than, it's something to do. I realize that a lot of people like that, don't like to question their belief, and disapprove of questions from the children they teach. I saw tons of them growing up and in my church. Within that church and lots since, there have been those who encourage questioning, reason and belief.

No one I knew that buried their heads in the sand ever used the Bible to defend that belief, because the Bible actual says some really simple things like Proverbs 12:1 "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. "



Boru- a temp captain at best, he was a bump on a log, I'll throw him in for the running, but he's doomed to lose.

(January 15, 2019 at 5:26 am)tackattack Wrote: James 3:13-18  ESV
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. ...

Maybe, but this also sounds like we should ignore anything not "from above" (i.e., from God). Makes it sounds as if it's from natural, material study that it's not pure or impartial. I'll see if I can find some original text instead of ESV to get a better idea of what it actually said.