Deconversion and some doubts

[Acrobat]

Gae and Grandy are naturalists. I find non-naturalism more compelling. But I like naturalism too. I think the arguments for both are compelling. Hell. Moral nihilism even holds sway with me.

But, for the most part, I'm a non-naturalist. And if you ask me, I'll tell you exactly why. Grandy and Gae will also tell you (and have been telling you) why they're naturalists. I'll even give you a sound arguments for moral naturalism if you want one.

There is only one person in this thread who hasn't provided a sufficient or coherent explanation for his moral realism: Acrobat.

Gae thinks that by applying measurable criteria to anything commonly treated as subjectively good, like good pizza, good becomes objective. So if a group of us gather together and decides on a criteria good pizza, involving a measurable amount of cheese, crispness, etc.., then good here is objective.

Both Gae and Grandizer seem to render moral statement as descriptive rather than normative. Render the statement stealing is morally wrong, as a descriptive declaration, than a normative one.

Grandizer appears to believe something along the same lines, but it’s not clear to me yet. Grandizer believes in intrinsic wrongness, yet oughts are creation of each society. A view that sounds a bit weird to me, given certain scenarios.


If something is intrinsically wrong, but the society we live in suggests we ought to do it, am I obligated to do what’s wrong, but not to do what’s right here?

In reality societies and people believe that you ought not do what’s wrong, that we’re subject to some transcendent moral order, that our moral obligations are not their creation, just like things like inalienable rights written in the constitution, are seen as intrinsically endowed, rather than extrinsically granted to us by society.

Societies beliefs and more akin to your belief in some metaphysical conception of good, than the sort of relativism, or social construction being implied. No one other than a minority of atheists believe that moral obligation are created and placed on us by our particular society.