Coming to a mutual agreement and some rambling.

[Mystic]

It's logically possible belief one has knowledge of God to be a delusion.
It's logically possible belief one has knowledge of God to be knowledge.

Both are possible. The proof is simple, all these are logical possibilities (perhaps not actual possibilities in real world, just logical possibilities).

1) God not exists, so all belief in knowledge of him would be a delusion.
2) God existing, but not giving knowledge of himself, knowledge of himself is a delusion again.
3) God existing, and giving knowledge of himself, then belief in knowledge of him can be justified and rational.

No one has proven which one of these are true in a conclusive decisive manner to others.

The problem of evil is note worthy problem. Believers struggle with it, and no one finds it an easy problem to do away with. There is even stronger versions of the arguments which classical Theodicy doesn't address.

But even Atheists upon reading it, tend to remain agnostic towards a benevolent Creator. This tells you, that even they are not 100% convinced, even thought it is a very strong argument.

One thing I want to come to an agreement is, that if God wanted to be known, it doesn't make any sense to me, that his proof would lie either in the scientific method or philosophy.

Then faith in God would not be spiritual, but it would rather be like belief in a mathematical proof. It would not be a connection to him, but some analytic cold hard proof.

What seems to be the case, is rather being a Unique being, this knowledge of him would be a unique type of knowledge, and would be of a spiritual nature.

The issue is such, such knowledge would not really in the realms of either philosophy or science. It cannot be proven by either.

Moreover, it seems no one would want to ever rely on a argument, no matter how seemingly convincing, as we know arguments time and time again have been debunked.

So it's rather a matter of choice.

Do you believe your belief in God is a delusion?
Do you believe your belief in God is justified or knowledge?

Perhaps if God exists, he doesn't want us relying on rigorous mathematical type proof of his existence, but rather to look upon him with the eyes of the soul.

Now I understand people here don't believe such knowledge or "seeing" is possible.

But really - there is no arguments to prove either way in a conclusive manner. There is a strong argument of evil (different from the classical one), I understand that, but people remain agnostics even with that argument, so if you are not convinced yourself 100%, then sympathize with others not being convinced of that...

And one thing to mention, is an Atheists Atheism is not prove of no knowledge of God to others just as Theists theism is not proof of knowledge of God to others. It goes both ways.

Perhaps religion distanced people from the true great creator, and then all thoughts towards him, were abandoned, because it felt like "how did I believe in this monster" - that was my belief of "God", I don't believe this belief was grounded on knowledge, therefore I have no knowledge of God...Not saying anyone said this to themselves, but it's a process of thought within, subconsciously.

Realizing how did I worship Trinity, how did I worship a God that tortures disbelievers and has shows them little to no mercy and compassion and love. "My belief in God was ill-founded, therefore, I have no belief in God entirely".

This thought process I realized was there for me, but I while questioning Islam, saw myself hard pressed to believe in the Wrathful Punishing Type God of Quran.

I saw myself inclining towards Mercy, Compassion, forgiveness, forbearance.

I didn't conclude because my belief in God was ill-founded, that all of belief towards God was ill-founded.

I didn't conclude because I was deluded about religion, I must be deluded about God.

This doesn't mean I am not deluded about God...but reading some of the conversion stories...I feel many people went wrong in that thought process. They talk about their disbelief in religion leading to their disbelief in God.

I also feel like that a lot of people believe in God for part of the cultural package that comes in religion. So as their religion is proven wrong, so their attachment towards God goes away with religion. Specially if that concept of God was a bad concept.

I don't know...I'm just rambling on here...

But the main message is:

There is no conclusive argument either way.

"I don't know" is an option.
"I do know" is an option.

I think the "I do know" one takes a lot of a patience, and the "I don't know" one takes a lot of courage.

---

If TL:DR:


But the main message is:

There is no conclusive argument either way.

"I don't know" is an option.
"I do know" is an option.

I think the "I do know" one takes a lot of a patience, and the "I don't know" one takes a lot of courage.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Are you a random word generation program?

[Epimethean]

Seriously, this is all ramble and I can't find anything with which to agree.

You seem to have gone round the godbend and, whereas once you seemed merely eccentric, now you come across as crack-addled.

[Mystic]

The main message is there is no knock out argument to prove:

1) I don't know God exists.
or
2) I do know God exists.

Both make rational sense as logical possibilities.

So it's a matter of choice.

2 takes patience
1 takes courage

Neither can be proven by rational arguments.

[Epimethean]

Blah. Why is this in the atheism section?

[Mystic]

Blah. Why is this in the atheism section?

Why shouldn't it be?

[Simon Moon]

The main message is there is no knock out argument to prove:

1) I don't know God exists.
or
2) I do know God exists.

No one knows if a god exists. People CLAIM to know a god exists.

Both make rational sense as logical possibilities.

The claim that one knows that a god exists is not based on logic.

So it's a matter of choice.

1 takes patience
2 takes courage

No, it's a matter of intellectual honesty.

Why does choice 2 take courage?

Neither can be proven by rational arguments.

Oh, bloody hell! Not this again...

[Mystic]

Simon Moon...

Here is the thing...

Theists believe they know or at least claim they do.

So doesn't seem dumb to constantly argue over something that you can't prove to them, but rather they must prove to themselves?

There is no rational argument to prove God let alone that we have properly basic knowledge of him.

But equally so, there is no rational argument to prove no human has properly basic knowledge of him.

The problem of evil is a good argument but even Athiests tend to remain agnostic towards a benevolent Creator so obviously it's not knock argument nor is it meant to be. It's rather suppose to challenge the notion of God which it does, and there hasn't been a good rebuttal of it so far.

So given these facts....

Shouldn't it be better not to constantly assert "You don't know God exists" to Theists, when you can't prove it rationally. Even if you knew it was true, just like you don't like Theists saying "You should believe in God" without giving evidence why.

Either way - it seems - rather this is an honest question everyone must come up with.

I say it takes courage to disbelieve in God, because you are now no longer with the assurance of a benevolent Creator whom will perserve youf soul and honor your struggles till the end of time (which will never end, it's just a saying) or take of care all of humanity and possible sentient life, and perserve them.

[Epimethean]

It takes no courage: It takes a decent mental faculty and a lack of credulity.

[FemmeRealism]

It's logically possible belief one has knowledge of God to be a delusion.
It's logically possible belief one has knowledge of God to be knowledge.

Both are possible. The proof is simple, all these are logical possibilities (perhaps not actual possibilities in real world, just logical possibilities).

1) God not exists, so all belief in knowledge of him would be a delusion.
2) God existing, but not giving knowledge of himself, knowledge of himself is a delusion again.
3) God existing, and giving knowledge of himself, then belief in knowledge of him can be justified and rational.

No one has proven which one of these are true in a conclusive decisive manner to others.

I don't quiet think that the knowlage of God could be logial perse, since there is no solid, palpable evidence that God truly did create the Universe as we know it. However, I will say that the knowlage of God's excistance could be a delusion to those who follow it as fact, as they need a "hole filler" in their knowlage, say, on a scientific or spiritual level. It may be possible that a god, gods or "God" may truly excist, and we are thoroughly ignorant of this fact as said "God" or gods may excist with no acknowledgment of His, Her or Their presence.
While it is to that atheists (like myself) cannot completely disprove the existence of a higher divine deity, neither can any prove that such a deity does, truly, exist. While atheist cannot condemn the definite presence of a divine force such as a God, we request solid proof of His/Her presence, and have yet to be met by said evidence. However, neither can we disprove God's existance. And so births the religion impasse.