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Deconversion and some doubts
RE: Deconversion and some doubts
(August 8, 2019 at 7:50 am)Acrobat Wrote:
(August 7, 2019 at 8:43 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: But what if you didn't love your daughters? What if you hated them? Would you still be "obligated" not to fail them?

Yes, because I’m obligated to love them, whether I do or not.

Imagine being a child of such a father, his failing would be quite evident. “He wasn’t a good father, when he ought to have been a good father.”

Yeah but that's not really how the world works. What about different scenarios?

“He wasn’t a good father, when he ought to have been a good father” Smacks of social normativism and conformity. What about this? "He often didn't do an adequate job as a father, especially during those many times when he was accepting his 'Dad of the Year Award.'" Plato addresses this directly in the Republic. Book II (358e-359d).





You aren't obligated to love your daughters, man. You just do.  And since you love them, you are bound to do right by them. That's just the way love works. But I don't think how you treat people whom you love is very much relevant to ethics. To me, the more pertinent question is: how do you treat people you hate? Or: how should you treat people you hate? You Christiany types like to say that people should love one another. And I dig it and everything, but it isn't realistic. Plus that, Christian love is an odd kind of love. Christian love thinks things like convincing gay men to enter unfulfilling heterosexual marriages is "loving" them. No it isn't.

Genuine love of a gay person usually entails wanting them to be happy and fulfilled in their lives. But that's not Christian love.

"Wear the yoke of conformity." THAT'S what "Christian love" usually amounts to. What kind of piss poor love is that? But I digress.

The question isn't whether you "ought" to be a good father. The question is: How can I be a good father? When you decide to be a good father you take on the yoke of that particular moral duty. And it has nothing to do with love or emotion. It has everything to do with what (objectively) one needs to do in order to be good at fathering. The rules for being a good father are not arbitrary. You can't just say, "leaving my children to starve in the cold is good fathering in my opinion." Same goes with morality. Morality is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact.


Quote:I agree it’s the Good that defines our goal. It is what obligates us.

The Good doesn’t exist as a pretty dress in a window which I can casually decide whether I want to put on, hence why Plato’s description involves the collective murder of the one trying to reveal it to the cave dwellers.
Exactly. I think what Plato is saying here (and I agree with him wholeheartedly) is that the group mentality is in no way shape or form a moral mentality. (Though it very much pretends to be.)
But this is yet another strike against the Christians who very often confuse the two. One may say, in the Christians' defense that they are a group like any other and should not be criticized especially for possessing the default foibles common to all groups. But! The Christians make themselves an exception. They call their herd mentality by tender names. I've known homophobic frat boys who "don't like queers." But they (at the very least) they didn't claim their bigotry was some kind of righteousness urge, as Christians often do. The evangelical Christian lifestyle is objectively immoral in many regards. It promotes hatred and violence. And what's worse, it is so sure of itself because it is based in doctrine, that it dares not question or challenge itself as far as moral issues are concerned.
I like a lot of the Christian moral imperatives, don't get me wrong. I dig the Sermon on the Mount more than you may realize. But all this immoral baggage (bigotry, hatred, violence, and coercion) that is attached to Christianity is morally wrong in an objective sense. And it bothers me to no end when Christians make bullshit claims like "you can't even have morality without God." BULLSHIT. The opposite is true.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Deconversion and some doubts - by Jake - July 26, 2019 at 2:35 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2019 at 2:43 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 26, 2019 at 2:51 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Abaddon_ire - July 26, 2019 at 4:30 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by arewethereyet - July 26, 2019 at 4:47 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 26, 2019 at 5:18 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 26, 2019 at 5:52 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Abaddon_ire - July 27, 2019 at 12:50 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 27, 2019 at 4:20 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Abaddon_ire - July 27, 2019 at 4:56 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 27, 2019 at 5:07 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Abaddon_ire - July 27, 2019 at 5:12 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 27, 2019 at 8:40 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 27, 2019 at 10:40 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 27, 2019 at 12:37 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 29, 2019 at 7:27 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 29, 2019 at 4:26 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 29, 2019 at 5:28 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 29, 2019 at 10:13 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 29, 2019 at 11:25 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 29, 2019 at 11:46 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 3, 2019 at 7:37 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 3, 2019 at 9:35 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 7, 2019 at 8:43 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 8, 2019 at 7:50 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 8, 2019 at 9:51 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 9, 2019 at 10:34 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 12, 2019 at 7:36 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Belacqua - August 13, 2019 at 12:31 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 13, 2019 at 3:38 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Belacqua - August 13, 2019 at 4:52 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 30, 2019 at 12:24 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 27, 2019 at 5:46 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 27, 2019 at 10:10 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 27, 2019 at 10:15 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by downbeatplumb - July 27, 2019 at 4:00 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2019 at 5:32 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by arewethereyet - July 26, 2019 at 5:42 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Simon Moon - July 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Belacqua - July 26, 2019 at 6:02 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by tackattack - July 26, 2019 at 9:30 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Fake Messiah - July 27, 2019 at 5:00 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by comet - July 27, 2019 at 8:08 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Jake - July 27, 2019 at 9:16 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 27, 2019 at 10:56 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by downbeatplumb - July 27, 2019 at 11:47 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 27, 2019 at 12:26 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Mister Agenda - July 27, 2019 at 10:09 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Mister Agenda - July 27, 2019 at 10:52 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by HappySkeptic - July 27, 2019 at 1:27 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by downbeatplumb - July 28, 2019 at 5:14 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by LastPoet - July 28, 2019 at 10:07 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by comet - July 28, 2019 at 10:38 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by SteelCurtain - July 28, 2019 at 10:57 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by tackattack - July 29, 2019 at 10:49 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 29, 2019 at 5:50 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Valkyrie - July 29, 2019 at 11:35 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 30, 2019 at 12:08 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 30, 2019 at 12:26 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 6:10 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 30, 2019 at 7:00 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 30, 2019 at 11:30 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 4:31 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 30, 2019 at 6:24 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Fireball - July 30, 2019 at 8:21 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 9:34 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 7:46 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by mordant - July 31, 2019 at 9:26 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 10:59 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 3:41 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 3:58 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 4:04 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 4:38 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 4:33 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 4:46 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by mordant - July 30, 2019 at 4:52 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by EgoDeath - July 30, 2019 at 8:15 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 9:41 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 9:50 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 9:51 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 30, 2019 at 10:10 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 30, 2019 at 10:40 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Mister Agenda - July 31, 2019 at 9:03 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:23 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:03 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 11:22 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:33 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 11:43 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:45 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 5:48 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - July 31, 2019 at 12:00 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 6:07 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 6:20 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 6:31 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 7:06 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 7:18 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 8:47 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 9:17 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 9:36 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 10:22 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 10:42 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 10:53 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 10:57 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 11:16 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 1, 2019 at 12:35 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 6:27 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 1, 2019 at 7:24 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 7:58 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 11:36 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 5:50 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 6:08 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 6:33 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 7:21 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 7:27 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 7:38 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 7:47 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 7:52 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 8:13 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 8:23 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 8:32 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 8:46 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 8:56 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - July 31, 2019 at 9:14 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:00 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 9:04 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:05 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:14 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 9:24 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:22 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 10:01 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:27 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 9:41 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 10:17 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 10:38 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 10:30 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 10:42 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 10:59 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 10:55 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - July 31, 2019 at 11:06 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:04 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:08 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:18 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - July 31, 2019 at 11:37 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 7:40 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 8:02 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 8:00 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 8:06 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 8:04 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 8:08 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 8:17 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 8:19 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 8:25 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 8:29 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 10:58 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 1, 2019 at 11:25 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Silver - August 1, 2019 at 11:00 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 11:11 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Silver - August 1, 2019 at 11:21 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 7:31 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Abaddon_ire - August 1, 2019 at 2:54 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 1, 2019 at 6:23 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 7:22 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 1, 2019 at 7:32 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 7:36 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 1, 2019 at 7:40 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 11:02 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 11:20 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 11:25 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 11:14 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 7:36 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 9:13 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 8:00 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 9:27 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 9:19 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 9:39 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Silver - August 1, 2019 at 9:43 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 9:35 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 9:47 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 9:40 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 10:05 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 9:48 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 9:51 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 9:53 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 10:14 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 10:27 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 1, 2019 at 10:37 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 10:29 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2019 at 10:38 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 12:07 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Silver - August 2, 2019 at 12:16 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by EgoDeath - August 2, 2019 at 4:08 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 8:34 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by EgoDeath - August 2, 2019 at 9:10 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 12:21 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 7:18 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 7:21 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 7:42 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 10:28 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 10:53 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 11:07 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 11:09 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 11:15 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 11:19 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 11:43 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 11:45 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 11:46 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 11:48 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 11:52 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 11:57 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 12:08 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 12:11 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 12:18 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 12:22 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 12:41 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 12:42 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 12:44 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 12:46 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 12:57 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 12:59 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Acrobat - August 2, 2019 at 1:04 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 2, 2019 at 1:08 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Abaddon_ire - August 2, 2019 at 4:57 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 8, 2019 at 7:53 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 9, 2019 at 11:39 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 12, 2019 at 9:25 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 12, 2019 at 10:08 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by Grandizer - August 13, 2019 at 11:28 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Grand Nudger - August 12, 2019 at 11:26 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 12, 2019 at 11:42 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Valkyrie - August 12, 2019 at 11:42 pm
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by vulcanlogician - August 13, 2019 at 12:13 am
RE: Deconversion and some doubts - by The Valkyrie - August 13, 2019 at 12:26 am

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