(September 16, 2019 at 9:10 am)Grandizer Wrote:(September 16, 2019 at 8:44 am)Acrobat Wrote: There's seem to be no real motivation for making this story up. Jesus would have been the worst messiah claimant to suggest a rebellion against Rome. He seemed to be entirely uninterested in the Roman Political order at all, let alone exhibiting any indication that he wanted to over throw it. There were plenty of other Messiah claimant that would have been more useful for this purpose.
In the first scenario I describe, nothing was made up. Things just happened naturally whereby Joseph just let the others come up with their own interpretations of what happened without having to correct them. Perhaps he was too distraught to bother to correct them.
In the second scenario, Joseph of Arimathea "who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God" (Mark 15) may have been disappointed that Jesus was unable to bring near the kingdom of God. So Joseph decided to take things into his own hands in the hopes of achieving this goal (by using Jesus' purported resurrection as that spark) but things didn't go as exactly planned, even when the other disciples nevertheless ended up believing that Jesus did rise from the dead (because of the empty tomb and women witnesses and all).
But they didn't just believe Jesus body was missing. But that he truly rose again. They believed in the reality of the resurrection as much as they did in the reality of an empty tomb. The depictions of the resurrection may be mysterious in nature, but people truly did believe in it, as a real as believing touching human flesh.
The community defies the sort of expectations and reality of other communities of disappointed expectations, like those communities that thought the world was going to end on an exact date. They go from a communities of high hope and expectations, to communities of disappointment, at at best a haggard hope, that's been shot and dismembered. They have a mortal wound that they've never able to recover fully from, that the drains the life out of them.
But this took a very different trajectory. Rather than diminished community, holding on to hope on a thread, they became more fervent more committed to this hope than when Christ was even alive, awakened to the reality of it. It didn't die, wasn't even wounded, or scathed, but became more animated and alive by it. That's pretty profound in itself. Christianity should have died along with him on the cross, like the following of other messiah claimants before him. If it managed to survive longer, should have done so with a mortal wound, hope dangling on a thin thread.
Quote:Ultimately, however, as I said in the OP, we don't have sufficient relevant information to go by to make any confident claims about what may have happened back then. Even if we were to be very charitable and grant that supernatural events are possible and that the Gospels were not entirely myths. We can speculate, but that's about all one can do. The case for the Resurrection just doesn't have a good basis, and it doesn't help that it's supposed to be a supernatural event (even if we grant that such events can be possible).
This is where our different presuppositional elements lay. I'm not into epoche (The Pyrrhonists developed the concept of "epoché" to describe the state where all judgments about non-evident matters are suspended in order to induce a state of ataraxia (freedom from worry and anxiety)), like many atheist. Rather than withholding a conclusion, I look for one that smooths it all out. One which the pieces fit more comfortably in, than ones that leave more nagging suspensions about certain pieces of the puzzle.
The resurrection exists as such a conclusion, because any naturalistic explanation that has ever been offered, or that I can imagine, never seems capable to doing that. It's make sense only when one contemplates the question less, but not for someone like me who wants to contemplate it more and more, till something is revealed. Epoche may relieve the anxiety for you, but not for me, who needs to contemplate and contemplate more, about what happened.