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Why not deism?
RE: Why not deism?
(September 26, 2019 at 6:55 pm)Grandizer Wrote:
(September 26, 2019 at 6:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I don't even think it's valid, though.

It seems to treat existence as if it's an attribute. As in:

This maximally great being has all the following attributes: A, B, C, D, etc.
But this maximally great being has all those same attributes, except it has one more attribute, it exists.

Doesn't something need to exist, before it can have any attributes?

Just saying...

I think with the modal ontological argument, it's more like if you concede the first premise then God exists in at least one possible world and yet, God being maximally great means he is a necessary entity. So if God exists in even one possible world he has to exist in all possible worlds, including the actual. S5 modal logic allows this to happen, but ultimately it's just a trick with words.

Exactly.  The points in the argument to be considered are 1) If God exists, then God is maximally great and 2) a maximally great being would have necessary existence (otherwise it would not be maximally great).

Linguistically, this is precisely the same thing as saying, 'If God exists, then God exists'. It doesn't matter how we define 'maximally great' or 'possible worlds' or any of the rest of it.  We are asked to imagine something that, definitionally, we cannot imagine.

Another, slightly snarkier, way to restate the argument is, 'I think, therefore God exists.'

Ontology is just silly.

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 15, 2019 at 1:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 1:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Fake Messiah - September 15, 2019 at 2:06 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:19 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by downbeatplumb - September 15, 2019 at 2:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by downbeatplumb - September 16, 2019 at 1:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 6:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 8:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 9:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 10:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 12:17 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 7:26 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 10:39 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 10:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 11:00 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 11:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 16, 2019 at 11:08 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 16, 2019 at 7:08 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 15, 2019 at 2:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 15, 2019 at 3:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 8:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 17, 2019 at 1:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Alan V - September 15, 2019 at 4:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 15, 2019 at 5:13 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 15, 2019 at 6:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 15, 2019 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Acrobat - September 16, 2019 at 8:24 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - September 16, 2019 at 9:27 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 16, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 16, 2019 at 1:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 16, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 8:13 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 9:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 10:17 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 10:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 17, 2019 at 11:45 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 18, 2019 at 11:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 18, 2019 at 11:52 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 12:02 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:22 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 19, 2019 at 12:43 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:48 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 19, 2019 at 1:10 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 am
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 19, 2019 at 12:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 19, 2019 at 12:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 7:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 16, 2019 at 10:00 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 16, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 16, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2019 at 8:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 17, 2019 at 11:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 17, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 2:14 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 2:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 3:17 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 4:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 4:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 2:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 9:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 18, 2019 at 2:37 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Cecelia - September 18, 2019 at 5:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 18, 2019 at 10:35 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:22 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 10:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 10:54 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 6:34 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 6:44 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 7:46 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 8:22 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:32 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 10:06 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 10:21 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 10:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 11:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 11:33 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 11:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 20, 2019 at 12:29 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 25, 2019 at 1:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 25, 2019 at 4:14 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 8:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 8:01 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 10:59 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 11:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 19, 2019 at 12:48 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 1:16 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by tackattack - September 19, 2019 at 5:26 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 8:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:46 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 11:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 20, 2019 at 8:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Fake Messiah - September 24, 2019 at 11:17 am
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 24, 2019 at 4:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Succubus - September 25, 2019 at 5:44 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 26, 2019 at 1:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 26, 2019 at 1:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2019 at 6:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 26, 2019 at 8:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 27, 2019 at 8:15 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 27, 2019 at 6:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 27, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 2:29 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 3:34 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 7:48 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 9:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Jackalope - October 1, 2019 at 9:39 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 9:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 26, 2019 at 6:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Valkyrie - September 26, 2019 at 5:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 27, 2019 at 6:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - September 30, 2019 at 8:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 8:19 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - September 30, 2019 at 9:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 10:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 11:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 5:07 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 10:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 1, 2019 at 5:58 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 1, 2019 at 10:25 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - October 1, 2019 at 9:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 2, 2019 at 12:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - October 3, 2019 at 12:38 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 3, 2019 at 6:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Jackalope - October 1, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - October 4, 2019 at 3:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 2, 2019 at 6:13 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 3, 2019 at 6:37 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 4, 2019 at 9:23 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 7, 2019 at 4:24 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Ricardo - October 7, 2019 at 5:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 7, 2019 at 7:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 8, 2019 at 9:09 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 8, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 9, 2019 at 8:51 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 12:15 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 1:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 2:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 4:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - October 9, 2019 at 4:33 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 6:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 6:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 8:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by possibletarian - October 9, 2019 at 8:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 10, 2019 at 9:00 am
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - October 10, 2019 at 10:19 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 15, 2019 at 10:04 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Cod - October 16, 2019 at 4:46 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 16, 2019 at 8:38 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 9, 2020 at 10:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - July 10, 2020 at 9:36 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 10, 2020 at 10:02 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - July 10, 2020 at 11:34 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Abaddon_ire - July 10, 2020 at 8:21 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 10, 2020 at 8:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by onlinebiker - July 10, 2020 at 12:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 16, 2020 at 6:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - July 16, 2020 at 9:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 3:39 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:15 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 4:21 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:48 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 16, 2020 at 10:01 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 4:50 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:55 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 5:31 am

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