RE: Time to embrace Islam!
December 3, 2019 at 10:07 am
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2019 at 10:27 am by Mister Agenda.)
Do cops ignore rapes happening in their plain view where you're from? If not, what's your point?
Can you answer my questions instead of responding by raising another question?
Yes, I'm not fluent in Arabic. The only people who seem to think the Koran is convincing in Arabic are Muslims, I do know people IRL who have read the Koran in Arabic and only the Muslims seem to think it's that great. It doesn't matter how poetic and aesthetic it is in the original Arabic, it's what it has to say that matters. I don't need someone to tell me what an English translation of the Koran means, I can read English. I don't have to read the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek to be objective. If your book loses so much in the translation (miraculous in the original, meh in translation), maybe it should have been written in a more translatable language in the first place.
I don't expect ancient people who didn't know any better to behave according to modern moral understanding. I expect a real prophet of a real Allah to have a more prophetic morality. Child marriage is wrong because of the danger to and abuse of the child. I don't expect an ordinary warlord who started a made-up religion to understand that. Islam is not unique in that regard, all the religions are made up, and most of the founders of them do not hold up well. The Jains may be an exception to that generalization, having figured out slavery is wrong centuries before Jesus and Mohammed, who failed to condemn it.
(December 2, 2019 at 3:43 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:(December 2, 2019 at 12:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: On what do you base the claim that 'most atheists in the West left their faith for reasons that are specific to their former religion'? The reasons I left my former religion (Pentecostal Protestant Christianity) left me still believing in some sort of God, the reasons I stopped believing in God (a couple of decades later) would apply to any religion that posits any kind of supernatural deity, and I find that to be common among atheists in my little part of the USA. Assuming Christianity as an 'initial religion', leaving it makes you 'not-a-Christian', not necessarily an atheist. I have reasons for not believing Christianity AND additional reasons for not believing in God.
Can you elaborate on your reasons for not believing in God?
Can you answer my questions instead of responding by raising another question?
(December 2, 2019 at 3:43 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:(December 2, 2019 at 12:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: For the record, I've read the Koran, cover-to-cover, plus the hadiths. I didn't find it particularly impressive or convincing
I assume you read a translation and not the original Arabic text. It's the latter that is impressive and miraculous judging by the way it came into being. Someone who doesn't understand Arabic simply needs to read the experts' comments on the original text to make an impartial judgment.
Yes, I'm not fluent in Arabic. The only people who seem to think the Koran is convincing in Arabic are Muslims, I do know people IRL who have read the Koran in Arabic and only the Muslims seem to think it's that great. It doesn't matter how poetic and aesthetic it is in the original Arabic, it's what it has to say that matters. I don't need someone to tell me what an English translation of the Koran means, I can read English. I don't have to read the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek to be objective. If your book loses so much in the translation (miraculous in the original, meh in translation), maybe it should have been written in a more translatable language in the first place.
(December 2, 2019 at 3:43 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:(December 2, 2019 at 12:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: but I think jettisoning the hadiths in their entirety would be a good idea. They're particularly problematic, not part of the Koran, and explicitly not infallible. If you're unwilling to do that, have you considered Shia? They manage to avoid the problem of Mohammed being a pedophile by estimating Aisha's age considerably higher, maybe even 21, before he consummated their marriage. Once upon a time, Aisha being very young was considered a plus by the Sunni, since it made her transmission of the Koran seem more miraculous, or at least prodigious. Now it just seems creepy.
They're not problematic at all.
A minimum age for marriage changed greatly throughout history, it makes absolutely no sense for you or for anyone to judge a marriage that took place 14 centuries ago. It's actually a huge mistake even modern professional historians warn of. (called anachronism, if I can recall correctly)
I don't expect ancient people who didn't know any better to behave according to modern moral understanding. I expect a real prophet of a real Allah to have a more prophetic morality. Child marriage is wrong because of the danger to and abuse of the child. I don't expect an ordinary warlord who started a made-up religion to understand that. Islam is not unique in that regard, all the religions are made up, and most of the founders of them do not hold up well. The Jains may be an exception to that generalization, having figured out slavery is wrong centuries before Jesus and Mohammed, who failed to condemn it.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.