(June 2, 2009 at 12:24 pm)dagda Wrote: I think you have missed my point. You say the apostles were real, historical figures, and they clearly believed in the physical, historical Christ. This leaves two options; Jesus is real or they are lying. Which one will it be?
Kyu, your comments on Josephus do not prove that Josephus did not write about Christ. Indeed, it actually verifies the point I was making; of course the passage will not sound like Josephus if the style of the writer had to be dismantled to create a more Christian friendly version (he was quite anti-Christian I think).
Ledo, Origen was an early Church Father. He cited a Josephus passage mentioning Christ-and criticized it for being so anti-Christian. Also, your comments about the Jewish sources seem to be pure fantasy. Where is the evidence and why would the sources that are so anti-Christian not mention the fact that he was fiction (first thing I would do if I were them)?
The Jewish writings claim Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman Centurian. Also some writings have him living a century earlier and show him simply as a smart-ass trouble maker. Origen mentions Jesus in the same sentence as Josephus, but there is no actual quote from Josephus about Jesus. Did he really read Josephus' books? If so, why no quote? Jesus appears to be mentioned by Origen as an historical figure Josephus did not believe in.
The first quote claims James was the brother of Jesus called the Christ. Is this supposed to be a Josephus quote, or is Origen making this statement on his own? The second citation is even more cloudy.
Origen, Josephus and Jesus
The works of Origen (c. 182-251 CE) which have down to us mention Josephus referencing Jesus Christ twice. It is worth quoting both passages in full:
"Flavius Josephus, who wrote the "Antiquities of the Jews" in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said, that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ. And the wonderful thing is, that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James." (On The Gospel Of Matthew, 1:15) [om]
"For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),-the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine" (Origen, Against Celsus, 1:47) [oa]
One point of interest is that Josephus is cited fourteen times by early Christian writers in the Ante-Nicence Fathers - and these are the only mentions of this supposed reference to Christ before Eusebius in the fourth century. [tj]
The next obvious query is Origen's correctness of the reference to "the 18th book of his Antiquities" in "Against Celsus". The attached footnote to the Ante-Nicene Fathers is this (SPIonic font required):
"[arxaiologiaj. S.] Cf. Joseph., Antiq., book xviii. c. v. sec. 2." [oa]
Louis Feldman, the pre-eminent Josephus scholar, has confirmed that the original text of Origen Against Celsus does not reference "the 18th book of his Antiquities". We can therefore not be certain that Origen was aware of Josephus 18.3.3 when he wrote.
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