(October 27, 2011 at 4:17 am)ElDinero Wrote: Then. That. Is. Not. Free. Will.
You fucking idiots, can't even wrap your head around the absolute most basic concept there is. What could be easier than 'Free will means you can do whatever'. As I said in the beginning, there are things that I suspect in your (made up) version of heaven I will not be allowed to do. But to remove them from me would defeat the point of 'me' altogether. One thing that's always stressed about heaven is how you can see all your old loved ones and so on. But if I turned up to see them having had these elements of me removed, they wouldn't recognise me, and the reunion would therefore not be a joyous one, but more of a confused probing to find out what happened to me.
Get your head around that paragraph, and stop trying to argue that 'free will within certain parameters' is something that even exists.
Free will within certain perameters is the only kind of free will there is. In the scope of our discussion, you're not ultimately free to defy God. Your rebellion only lasts as long as your life does, and that is however long God pleases to give you to come to repentance. It's important for you to realize that certain elements of you are not approved by God and don't belong in Heaven. The attributes you think of as too wonderful to lose are what keep you in spiritual poverty.
In Heaven there won't be an occupy jerusalem movement. There isn't going to be any more rebellion against Gods authority. This is Gods purpose:
Let's say the Kingdom of Heaven is not a possible world that God can directly create. To have a world of creatures who freely love and worship Him, He needs a runup to that world in which creatures freely choose either to accept Him and live with Him in eternity, or reject Him and separate themselves from Him forever. While He could have made His existence overwhelmingly obvious, He chose to interact with us at arms length so as not to unduly influence our decision making. Of course, if everyone knows God is around then they are going to be on their best behavior and do everything He says. He didn't want yes men, so He put this world under a veil, so His creatures could be significantly free to make their own choices. He gives them enough information to know He is there, and what their choices are, but He doesn't press them into service.
The people who freely choose Him, who want to be wholly good and to love and worship God, are remade in the image of His Son. They take on His attributes, and His character. So, all of the people in the Kingdom of Heaven, while they may have the choice of rebellion, will simply never choose it. There will be nothing within them which would ever lead to even a single transgression. The former things of this world will have passed away, and there will be a new way which will be wholly satisfyingly, which is perfect joy, perfect love; life itself will be perfect.
I understand that in your rebellious state, worshipping God is the furtherest thing from your mind. All I will say to you is that you already love God, but you transfer that love onto His creation. You ascribe its wonder and beauty and mystery to blind processes and fate. You have no one to praise for it, no one to thank for your life. So, you give yourself the glory. That's what atheism is all about..transferring the glory due to God to yourself. The deists give the glory to nature. But God is even more wonderful than His creation, and is worthy of all praise.
Those loved ones, if they were in Heaven, would all be different too. They would be changed by the love of God, and you would fit right in. There would be nothing missing because your joy would be complete. The transient nature of this world would not be missed, because it is ultimately empty and futile. It is all perishing, and it will all pass away. God set eternity in our hearts so that we would seek Him out, because that is the only thing that will satisfy our restless souls. The world can fill your senses and give you a fix from its sensual pleasures, but they don't last. Our hearts desire an eternal satisfaction, one which the world cannot provide. Only God can provide it, for if we drink from His well, we will never thirst again.
