RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
August 10, 2021 at 1:29 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2021 at 1:30 pm by Vicki Q.)
(July 29, 2021 at 11:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote:(July 28, 2021 at 10:01 am)Vicki Q Wrote: Secondly, the NT is clear and non-negotiable on the Oneness of God. In what sense are the groups of three you name one single entity in the same sense?
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " (Matthew 28:19 ESV)
<snip>
"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18 NIV)
I'm not sure I can see the point you're making. That God is One is repeated over and over again in the NT. The quote in #68 is one of many, many examples.
The quotes you give establish Jesus and the Holy Spirit within that One. This would be in a very similar way to how the C1 Jews would have viewed, say, the Burning Bush, or the Pillar of Cloud and Fire. It was entirely possible for them to say- this Entity you could see/hear/etc is God. They didn't believe the Burning Bush was a challenge to God being One, and nor did the Early Jewish church have a problem with saying Jesus is God, and God is One.
(July 29, 2021 at 12:02 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:(July 29, 2021 at 11:07 am)Vicki Q Wrote: OK, so there's no actual evidence that the community described in the NT believed in anything other than God is One. So we can Hitchens that suggestion.
And yet Paul himself complains about the diversity among early believers. Paul also repeatedly rails against his many rival apostles, who “preach another Jesus.” He often rages and fumes that his rivals are evil deceivers, with false Christs and false gospels so different from his own true Christ and true Gospel, that he accuses them of being agents of Satan and even lays curses and threats upon them.
Oh, there was visceral warfare over the ongoing need to follow the Torah. There were serious problems with factionalism based around personalities. But there is a very striking lack of disagreement about the placing of Jesus as God. Paul doesn't feel the need to argue the point, or justify his belief, and there is no evidence anywhere of it causing a problem. He simply states it.
That surely tells us it wasn't controversial, and I'm keeping my Hitchens...
