RE: Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Souls, and Atheism
November 21, 2011 at 12:28 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2011 at 1:05 am by Willpower.)
I see there may have been some confusion. I was posting a video to explain what NDE is. But my question is distinct from "brain-dead" or "virtual brain death" cases like the one in the video that I posted; My question is with regards to *cardiac arrest* patients whose brain activity does indeed fall flat, as even measured by EEG.
There is absolutely no brain function in these cases.
(Search google: The Brain During Cardiac Arrest.)
"After the heart stops beating due to a significant reduction of blood flow, the pressures across the entire body and within the arteries and the veins reach a point in which they equalise within approximately 50 seconds. Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds. This simply reflects a lack of brain function that is brought about due to a lack of blood flow into the brain. Brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes and if the blood flow is not restarted to the brain, the cells start to undergo changes which will ultimately lead to cell damage and then cell death. The first thing that happens is that the brain cells undergo a state of shock and this is brought about by a lack of oxygen."
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RE: "The thing is, there is only no activity in your brain when you are BRAIN DEAD, and nobody has came back from that. You can be in cardiac arrest and in a coma and still have some brain activity."
--Actually, people have come back from being brain-dead in certain miraculous scnearios. I have a video illustrating such a case, if you would like to see it let me know and i'll send you the link. Furthermore, research shows that you *don't* have an brain activity when you are in cardiac arrest, as demonstrated by the EEG.
RE: "I voted no on the basis, that experiences very similar to NDE's have been showed to result from a cut off of oxygen to the brain. I remember some research which was done on people who were subjected to high g forces in centrifuges."
--The video in my original post (above) discusses some of the problems with those centrifuge scenarios and how they are distinct from NDEs. For a few distinctions, in the centrifuge scenarios: people do not meet desceased loved ones, they do not meet "supreme beings" (or demons) or receive a profound sensation of love, nor do they ever receive a complicated perception of a body soaring through layers of space (universe) and the likewise. The only similarities are that they perceive light and attain a disoriented perception of consciousness (similar, in only minute respects, to OBEs), but it never goes beyond that. Also, people in these centrifuge scenarios never experience what people have termed "negative/hellish NDEs." There are too many key distinctions between a real NDE and the centrifuge scenario.
RE: "we only have the professor's word that he had absolutely NO brain activity during his coma (I'm not a medic so need to check if that is even possible outwith brain death), and we only have the professor's word that his hallucination was long lasting."
--He stated that his brain is virtually dead, yet he still experienced a vivid and complex NDE while in his brain-deteriorating meningitis coma. But that wasn't what I was referring to in the question that I posed. The question that I posed was regarding "cardiac arrest" cases. In these cases, the heart stops beating, the person stops breathing, and measurable brain activity (as measured by an EEG) drops to zero. There is absolutely no difference between a person who has these symptoms, and a person who has been dead for 4 weeks, except the degree of decay that their body has undergone. The fact that people are able to be revived does not negate that they are physiologically dead. There is no physiological distinction between the two here in this case. If there is no brain activity, it is surprising that the person is able to have such a vivid and memorable experience. Even when we are living and dreaming or hallucinating, there is measurable brain activity. There is none, however, in the case of these cardiac arrest patients and the similar.
RE: "The hallucination may have been fleeting during a spike of brain activity and he remembers it differently."
--It wasn't a fleeting experience. He described from being on earth, to soaring through the clouds, to expanding out toward the center of the universe, as the video depicts. But this is aside from my question, anyway. My question was regarding cardiac arrest patients, who actually have no measurable degree of brain activity over a prolonged period of time.
RE: "NDE and 'god-like' experiences can all be simulated in a laboratory environment using drugs and electricity amongst others."
--As I just discussed, those simulations fall short of many of NDEs' key distinctions. Furthermore, people in those scenarios still retain a measurable degree of brain activity. Cardiac arrest patients, on the other hand, have none (EEG goes completely flat). Yet they still somehow attain a long and vivid experience.
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I would also like to add something regarding cardiac arrest patients: for every minute a patient stays in cardiac arrest, their chances of survival drop by roughly 10%. Furthermore, brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. Yet many NDE experiencers were people who were in cardiac arrest more than half an hour. There are cases where a person came back to life as the sheet was being thrown over his/her head. They return with no brain injury, but with an extremely vivid and memorable NDE.
Ultimately, I still don't see how a person with no measurable degree of brain activity (such as cardiac arrest patients), could create such vivid "hallucinations."
There is absolutely no brain function in these cases.
(Search google: The Brain During Cardiac Arrest.)
"After the heart stops beating due to a significant reduction of blood flow, the pressures across the entire body and within the arteries and the veins reach a point in which they equalise within approximately 50 seconds. Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds. This simply reflects a lack of brain function that is brought about due to a lack of blood flow into the brain. Brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes and if the blood flow is not restarted to the brain, the cells start to undergo changes which will ultimately lead to cell damage and then cell death. The first thing that happens is that the brain cells undergo a state of shock and this is brought about by a lack of oxygen."
-------------------
RE: "The thing is, there is only no activity in your brain when you are BRAIN DEAD, and nobody has came back from that. You can be in cardiac arrest and in a coma and still have some brain activity."
--Actually, people have come back from being brain-dead in certain miraculous scnearios. I have a video illustrating such a case, if you would like to see it let me know and i'll send you the link. Furthermore, research shows that you *don't* have an brain activity when you are in cardiac arrest, as demonstrated by the EEG.
RE: "I voted no on the basis, that experiences very similar to NDE's have been showed to result from a cut off of oxygen to the brain. I remember some research which was done on people who were subjected to high g forces in centrifuges."
--The video in my original post (above) discusses some of the problems with those centrifuge scenarios and how they are distinct from NDEs. For a few distinctions, in the centrifuge scenarios: people do not meet desceased loved ones, they do not meet "supreme beings" (or demons) or receive a profound sensation of love, nor do they ever receive a complicated perception of a body soaring through layers of space (universe) and the likewise. The only similarities are that they perceive light and attain a disoriented perception of consciousness (similar, in only minute respects, to OBEs), but it never goes beyond that. Also, people in these centrifuge scenarios never experience what people have termed "negative/hellish NDEs." There are too many key distinctions between a real NDE and the centrifuge scenario.
RE: "we only have the professor's word that he had absolutely NO brain activity during his coma (I'm not a medic so need to check if that is even possible outwith brain death), and we only have the professor's word that his hallucination was long lasting."
--He stated that his brain is virtually dead, yet he still experienced a vivid and complex NDE while in his brain-deteriorating meningitis coma. But that wasn't what I was referring to in the question that I posed. The question that I posed was regarding "cardiac arrest" cases. In these cases, the heart stops beating, the person stops breathing, and measurable brain activity (as measured by an EEG) drops to zero. There is absolutely no difference between a person who has these symptoms, and a person who has been dead for 4 weeks, except the degree of decay that their body has undergone. The fact that people are able to be revived does not negate that they are physiologically dead. There is no physiological distinction between the two here in this case. If there is no brain activity, it is surprising that the person is able to have such a vivid and memorable experience. Even when we are living and dreaming or hallucinating, there is measurable brain activity. There is none, however, in the case of these cardiac arrest patients and the similar.
RE: "The hallucination may have been fleeting during a spike of brain activity and he remembers it differently."
--It wasn't a fleeting experience. He described from being on earth, to soaring through the clouds, to expanding out toward the center of the universe, as the video depicts. But this is aside from my question, anyway. My question was regarding cardiac arrest patients, who actually have no measurable degree of brain activity over a prolonged period of time.
RE: "NDE and 'god-like' experiences can all be simulated in a laboratory environment using drugs and electricity amongst others."
--As I just discussed, those simulations fall short of many of NDEs' key distinctions. Furthermore, people in those scenarios still retain a measurable degree of brain activity. Cardiac arrest patients, on the other hand, have none (EEG goes completely flat). Yet they still somehow attain a long and vivid experience.
-------------------
I would also like to add something regarding cardiac arrest patients: for every minute a patient stays in cardiac arrest, their chances of survival drop by roughly 10%. Furthermore, brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. Yet many NDE experiencers were people who were in cardiac arrest more than half an hour. There are cases where a person came back to life as the sheet was being thrown over his/her head. They return with no brain injury, but with an extremely vivid and memorable NDE.
Ultimately, I still don't see how a person with no measurable degree of brain activity (such as cardiac arrest patients), could create such vivid "hallucinations."
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)
The "Test of Life" is not whether you can blindly "worship and praise God”. The test in life is whether or not you can live your life according to virtue, and live a life that reverberates waves of positive energy, building people up, as Jesus His son perfectly exemplified. We can choose lives of virtue as is God's will, or to choose lives of selfishness, arrogance, and other vices which have led to the plague of humanity we have found on earth. If people choose vice, that is their choice. Do not judge them (1 Corinthians 5:12 ). But He sent Jesus as a prime example of virtue so that we could see the light and choose it, instead of poisoning the earth with lives of darkness. Many, including even "Christians," have failed in this regard. But Christianity is supposed to be the message of love, hope, faith, unity, and virtue, that creates heaven on Earth.
The "Test of Life" is not whether you can blindly "worship and praise God”. The test in life is whether or not you can live your life according to virtue, and live a life that reverberates waves of positive energy, building people up, as Jesus His son perfectly exemplified. We can choose lives of virtue as is God's will, or to choose lives of selfishness, arrogance, and other vices which have led to the plague of humanity we have found on earth. If people choose vice, that is their choice. Do not judge them (1 Corinthians 5:12 ). But He sent Jesus as a prime example of virtue so that we could see the light and choose it, instead of poisoning the earth with lives of darkness. Many, including even "Christians," have failed in this regard. But Christianity is supposed to be the message of love, hope, faith, unity, and virtue, that creates heaven on Earth.
