Why does science always upstage God?

[Billy Bob]

Billy, please learn to use the quote function... it's difficult to follow your replies.
The easiest way is to navigate to your "User CP" and "Edit Options" (https://atheistforums.org/usercp.php?action=options) and then activate the bottom right option "Put the editor in source mode by default".

Then you can use standard tags:

Code:

[quote] Other user said [/quote]

"The truth is no one knows how the Universe came into being. There are ideas, but none is proven and perhaps none will ever be proven, given that repeatability detail we like to have in science and our Universe is just one and it must have started just once.
One thing that could help in that regard are the ideas that posit the existence of other universes, but that too is very likely beyond our ability to conclusively show, so... meh."

The truth is, you must prove the laws I gave did not exist when the universe was created naturally or the universe always existed naturally. Going by what we know and have NO doubts about, those laws show it could not have happened naturally. You can ignore that till the cows come home but do ignore what we know and claim "no one knows" is a lie.

Wow... Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?
That can't be done, that's why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. You prove the positive.
So, following your logic, please prove the laws you gave did exist when the Universe was created... if this sentence makes any sense, given that space-time seems to be closely linked to the Universe. If, as it seems, time "started" with the Universe, there was no time for any of our known physical laws to exist either.... there was no space either.
Or maybe there was and it had a different behaviour to what we observe in this Universe. Who knows? Do you?
Have you studied astrophysics to know more than those who work at NASA or ESA?

"so maybe the Big Bang did break thermodynamics... who knows?"

If it did, give evidence that this natural event somehow had no such laws to abide by. All we know is that if you claim natural events then they MUST fit with the laws of nature. You don't like that and like all the rest of you brats, you will just dismiss that. None of you will admit you truly don't care about science. You just want to pretend to care and be so honest. You're clearly not. 

Like I said, we can't tell. The maths we do have show a singularity. Do you know what that means?
Let me wiki that for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity (I singled out the most relevant definitions)
""
Mathematics

   Mathematical singularity, a point at which a given mathematical object is not defined or not "well-behaved", for example infinite or not differentiable

Complex analysis

   Essential singularity, a singularity near which a function exhibits extreme behaviour

Natural sciences

   Gravitational singularity, in general relativity, a point in which gravity is so intense that spacetime itself becomes ill defined
       Initial singularity, a hypothesized singularity of infinite density before quantum fluctuations caused the Big Bang and subsequent inflation that created the Universe
   Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems, in general relativity theory, theorems about how gravitation produces singularities such as in black holes
""

"ill-defined", "extreme behaviour", "infinite density"... Take your pick and the result is that our known "laws" break. If you want to call that phenomena "supernatural", be my guest. But I would shy away from attributing it any agency, which is what happens when believers invoke a god.

"My point of view is that, given that no one knows, let's not decide that an answer that was invented thousands of years ago is the correct one.... it very likely isn't."

The correct one is backed by evidence and none of you are willing to admit that.

Considering that the "fine-tuned argument" is not evidence and there doesn't seem to be any evidence for the existence of any entity responsible for creating the Universe, what is this evidence you speak of and what is this correct answer that stems from it?

Me...."The truth is, you must prove the laws I gave did not exist when the universe was created naturally or the universe always existed naturally."

So that is what you are all doing, ignoring the laws and saying we don't know. Then you come up with this BS...

"Wow... Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?"

Why can't you be responsible for what YOU believe? If I'm being told the didn't exist then by the evidence of "we don't know" when I gave the laws that have shown to work in the natural realm, then admit you don't want to follow science. None of you are honest enough to do that. 

"So, following your logic, please prove the laws you gave did exist when the Universe was created."

You're another person with a reading problem. I never said the laws existed during creation; I CLEARLY put that creation had to be done supernaturally by a supernatural creator. 

Look, learn to read and then reply to me because this is getting old dealing with such slow people.

---Evidence points to nothing does nothing. Real science says if there was something there already it must fit with the evidence of what we know. It must be observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. We know the 1LT says there's a conservation of energy. It can change forms and neither can be created or destroyed. Creation cannot happen by natural means. The 2LT has various aspects, one being the universe is winding down, entropy. Usable energy is becoming less usable, so at one point usable energy was at its max. This (the 1LT and 2LT) all points to a supernatural creation, by a supernatural creator at a certain point in which matter, space and time were created. When I read how it can happen otherwise, ALL the doubters resort to science-fiction. Once a supernatural creation is accepted, then the next step is finding proof of what supernatural power did it. We know these laws and have NO doubts about them.


Then after creation there are a WHOLE lot of things science never got around such as the fine-tuning of the universe so life can exist on earth, the beginning of life, the designs of life forms, the information needing to be there before life started, the synchrony needed from the start, asexual and sexual reproduction, consciousness, logic, etc.----