(July 9, 2023 at 4:10 am)no one Wrote: Why weren't they written by those first modern hoomans, you know 150,000 years or so ago?
Why is Hinduism a few thousand years older than your gospel, yet there is no mention of your gospel?
Well, that's obvious, isn't it? The Gospels were written after Jesus Christ died, and He died in A.D. 33 when Pontius Pilate was Roman Governor of Judea. [He began His Ministry, as I explained in another thread, in the 15th Year of the Emperor Tiberius, which we independently know to be 29 A.D.; and obviously none of the deeds which He did during His Ministry of Preaching and Miracles could be written down historically before He did them.] Since therefore they were written by His Apostles and Companions after He left the Earth, it is evident they would post-date 33 A.D.
Brian Wrote:I find this fascinating. Could you explain how Tertullian, who was born in 155 CE '...received this knowledge from the Apostles themselves.'?
Well, Brian, there I was referring to the Churches of Africa, Asia and Europe as Churches. The Apostles of Christ founded Churches wherever they went. St. Thomas the Apostle came to my Country, India. I've seen his Tomb in St. Thomas Mount, Chennai, not far from where I lived. Likewise, St. Peter and St. Paul preached in Rome. St. Matthew in Ethiopia. One St. James in Spain. Another St. James, also called the Just, and Cousin Brother of Jesus, in Jerusalem itself. And so on and so forth with all the Apostles. Now, these Churches, whether of Africa, of Asia, or of Europe, preserved the historical memory of what the Apostles did, spoke, wrote, handed down etc. St. Irenaeus mentions this in refuting Gnosticism, that no Church founded by the Apostles ever heard of such a thing as the Gnostics claimed, or said like that; rather, they all preached the Apostolic Teaching, and handed down the Tradition they received from Apostles.
@Fake Messiah oh ok, so the "Infidels" Atheist Website are the "expert" now, are they? lol. You should cite some secular scholar, neutral between Christianity and Atheism, on the Date of the Gospels. For e.g. on the Principle of Contingent Causation thread, I cited Alexander Vilenkin, neutral between God and Atheism, on the Beginning of the Universe. He said his own opinion is that the BGV Theorem says nothing about God itself per se, but does say the Universe has a Beginning, as we will discuss further in the proper place; so likewise, show me some secular scholar, indifferent between Christianity and Atheism, who says the Gospels were written late, with reasons, and explanations for the dates.
Also, as mentioned, early writers like St. Ignatius (2nd century), Papias(1st century) , the Didache (1st Century) mention the Gospel of Matthew, so it is certainly historically near to the Life of Jesus Christ Himself. Then we have the 7Q5 Papyrus for Mark, Rylands Papyrus P52 for St. John etc.
GN, this is not about political conservativism, e.g. fiscal conservatism per se, although Moral or Social Conservatism might be related. But it is more about Conservative Scholars recognizing the Church Fathers are historically credible, while Liberal Scholars may try to cast doubt on that.
Yet, even Liberal Scholars, who recognize that the Church wrote before certain dates, for e.g. 100 A.D. in the case of Papias etc, and when these same Church Fathers make mention of the Gospel writers in those writings, know then that the Gospels were certainly written before those dates.
And as mentioned, Liberal Scholar AT Robinson concluded Matthew and Mark were written before 60 A.D. and Luke also around that time or shortly after. Let me conclude with a final example. Sir William Ramsay was an Oxford-Educated New Testament Archaeologist. He was taught by liberals and had adopted prevalent errors on the alleged late origin and supposed non-historicity of the Gospels. Accordingly, he was a non-Christian. But later, after lifelong study of the Book of Acts, and himself having become a Recognized Expert in the field, he concluded about Luke: "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, he is possessed of the true historical sense; in short, this Author ought to be placed along with the very greatest of Historians". He said this after discovering loads of archaeological discoveries in Asia Minor that confirm in detail the historicity of the Gospel of Luke and Book of Acts. He recognized the early dates of Luke, and became a Christian.
Regards,
Xavier.
