Atheism and Ethics

[Lucian]

Suffering is certainly a consequence of many acts that are deemed immoral but not all. If I lie to you about something inconsequential, it will not cause suffering but would still be seen by many people to be immoral  depending on the context. It could be said that if people lied too often about things then trust would break down and that could lead to wider issues, but it doesn’t seem that suffering is the key there
Similarly, incest that could not result in a baby would still seem to be immoral to many, but there is no suffering

Not saying that you don’t have a point; but just that it is too narrow a point

IDK, lies cause quite a bit of suffering, and those that don't we even have a term for.  Little white lies.  Like lying about your age, or your weight, or whether or not you intend to go to the casino or the concert next door when you pull up in the parking lot and the rent a cop asks you.

I do think that, in general, it's safe to assume that when a person says something is immoral it's a thing that they at least believe has the potential for harm.  That there are people who see immorality where there is no harm and no potential for harm is, imo, just a description of a mistake.

The classic example of whether or not truth telling is a moral goal in and of itself or a secondary product that sometimes but not always aligns with moral behavior lies in whether or not it would be moral to lie to an assassin about the location of their intended target.  Are we under any moral obligation to tell them the truth?  Do we have a moral duty to lie..either directly, or by omission?

The problem here for both of us is that without reviewing the relevant studies across societies and seeing the proportion of people who see what as moral and immoral and why, we can’t really armchair theorise our way out of this I think. I guess that is a question though for you as I don’t know - have you read many studies on this. I haven’t, so am at a disadvantage here