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Atheist Forums › Community › Philosophy v
Atheism and Ethics

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Atheism and Ethics
BrianSoddingBoru4 Offline
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#196
RE: Atheism and Ethics
July 17, 2024 at 2:27 pm
(July 17, 2024 at 1:44 pm)Lucian Wrote:
(July 17, 2024 at 1:40 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Everything causes people suffering. Even utilitarianism, which proposes ‘the greatest good for the greatest number’, acknowledges that there will always be those who suffer.

But I do admire the neatness of your tautology.

Boru
Everything? If I don’t treat someone like a jerk but am polite and courteous towards them then I am avoiding immoral behaviour and acting in a positive moral manner. That doesn’t cause suffering? Sure, in some instances it may cause me to have to put up with things I don’t want to… but not always

How do you know that politeness and courtesy is what someone wants? I routinely hold doors open for people and once had a man yell at me, ‘I’m not some fucking cripple!’

The point is that it isn’t remotely possible to know in advance with any degree of certainty what the ramifications of a given action will be.

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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Atheist Forums › Community › Philosophy v
Atheism and Ethics

Messages In This Thread
Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 1:06 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 5, 2024 at 3:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 5, 2024 at 3:31 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:40 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 5, 2024 at 3:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - June 5, 2024 at 3:47 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:52 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 5, 2024 at 5:22 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 5:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 5, 2024 at 5:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 5:39 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Nay_Sayer - June 5, 2024 at 7:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 5, 2024 at 9:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 10:18 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 6, 2024 at 7:14 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 7:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 6, 2024 at 7:38 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 7:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 6, 2024 at 8:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 8:32 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 6, 2024 at 8:40 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 6, 2024 at 8:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 8:34 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Nanny - June 7, 2024 at 9:28 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 9:29 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 7, 2024 at 10:19 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 10:39 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 10, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 7:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 11, 2024 at 12:24 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 12:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 11, 2024 at 3:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 12, 2024 at 3:25 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 12:53 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 1:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - June 7, 2024 at 1:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 1:49 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 1:55 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 2:07 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 2:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 2:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 4:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 5:07 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2024 at 8:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 10:13 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2024 at 12:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 1:11 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Questor - June 8, 2024 at 7:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 8, 2024 at 8:02 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Questor - June 9, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:26 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 9:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2024 at 1:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 2:57 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Questor - June 8, 2024 at 7:39 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 9, 2024 at 7:01 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 8, 2024 at 7:05 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 2:39 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:52 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 9, 2024 at 2:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 3:03 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 9:53 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 9, 2024 at 9:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:48 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 9, 2024 at 10:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 11:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 10:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 4:54 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 10, 2024 at 5:03 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 9, 2024 at 10:53 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2024 at 11:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 10, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2024 at 12:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 10, 2024 at 12:11 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2024 at 12:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 7:23 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 11, 2024 at 12:33 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 12:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 16, 2024 at 3:10 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Thumpalumpacus - June 21, 2024 at 1:12 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2024 at 11:18 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 16, 2024 at 11:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Paleophyte - June 17, 2024 at 10:56 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 17, 2024 at 11:52 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Paleophyte - June 18, 2024 at 4:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 18, 2024 at 2:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Thumpalumpacus - June 21, 2024 at 1:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - June 18, 2024 at 2:19 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 18, 2024 at 2:26 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by h311inac311 - June 19, 2024 at 10:22 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 19, 2024 at 12:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Belacqua - June 19, 2024 at 7:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Paleophyte - June 20, 2024 at 2:38 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Belacqua - June 21, 2024 at 12:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 20, 2024 at 11:40 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 20, 2024 at 2:42 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 21, 2024 at 2:19 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 22, 2024 at 3:24 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by h311inac311 - June 21, 2024 at 6:56 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 22, 2024 at 3:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 22, 2024 at 11:09 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Elek_the_Chthonaut - July 2, 2024 at 12:03 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 2, 2024 at 12:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 3, 2024 at 2:51 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 4:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 7:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 7:29 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 7:39 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 7:42 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 8:16 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 8:28 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 9:41 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 9:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 9:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 10:02 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 10:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 10:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 10:49 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 7, 2024 at 11:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 12:00 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 2:05 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 8, 2024 at 8:50 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Thumpalumpacus - July 8, 2024 at 9:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 7, 2024 at 7:24 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 7:54 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 7, 2024 at 8:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 7:25 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 11:15 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - July 8, 2024 at 8:51 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 11:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 8, 2024 at 12:09 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 2:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 8, 2024 at 2:17 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 2:39 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 11:57 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 1:31 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 12:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 1:57 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 8, 2024 at 2:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 2:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 2:00 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:37 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:50 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:51 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:52 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:54 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 3:00 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 3:09 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 9, 2024 at 6:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 9, 2024 at 4:26 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 9:40 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 10:03 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 11:13 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 11:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 12:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 12:51 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 17, 2024 at 2:02 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 6:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 17, 2024 at 6:42 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 10:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 10:29 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 11:30 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 11:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 17, 2024 at 1:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 12:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 12:58 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 1:15 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 1:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:19 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:16 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:21 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:22 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:22 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 17, 2024 at 1:40 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 17, 2024 at 2:27 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:33 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:42 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 17, 2024 at 1:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 2:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:18 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 2:21 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 2:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 4:50 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 5:02 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 5:04 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 6:03 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 6:24 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 6:40 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 3:57 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 18, 2024 at 5:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 1:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 2:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:28 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 2:47 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 2:51 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:56 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 1:37 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 8:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 11:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 12:27 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 18, 2024 at 9:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - July 18, 2024 at 9:14 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 2:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 2:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 4:53 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 18, 2024 at 2:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 2:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 18, 2024 at 2:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 7:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 19, 2024 at 7:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 19, 2024 at 11:08 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 25, 2024 at 8:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 12:33 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 25, 2024 at 2:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 2:36 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2024 at 4:58 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 26, 2024 at 4:59 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2024 at 2:15 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 2:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2024 at 10:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 11:47 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 27, 2024 at 7:54 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 25, 2024 at 3:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 3:28 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 3:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 25, 2024 at 3:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2024 at 5:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 27, 2024 at 7:55 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 25, 2024 at 5:21 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 26, 2024 at 7:04 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 26, 2024 at 1:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 2:54 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 27, 2024 at 7:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2024 at 12:37 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 28, 2024 at 2:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 27, 2024 at 8:07 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 28, 2024 at 4:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - August 1, 2024 at 10:00 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - August 1, 2024 at 11:14 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - August 1, 2024 at 12:05 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2024 at 11:18 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 28, 2024 at 4:22 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 28, 2024 at 4:30 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - August 1, 2024 at 11:06 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - August 4, 2024 at 9:51 am

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