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Atheism and Ethics
RE: Atheism and Ethics
(July 25, 2024 at 8:27 am)Disagreeable Wrote: I'm a moral realist because there are facts about which actions are most and least harmful.

I am still not because I can’t see an obvious link between harm and some mind-independent non-institutional categorical imperative existing as a property of the universe. I agree it is as plausible a candidate as any if such a standard does exist - but I can’t show it does and most attempts I have seen appeal to intuition and I am just not comfortable with that as a standard by which to make these kind of judgements. 
I guess you could define immorality easily using your standard, and if you defined morality as having to do with harm, then sure morality exists in the sense that harm exists. In that sense you would be a kind of naturalistic moral realist I think, but I still don’t see the standard itself can be shown to exist as something objective. But basing morality on what causes the least harm seems to ignore moral actions that don’t have to do with harm. As an example, going out of your way to do something nice for someone who doesn’t deserve it. Do you have thoughts on that side of it?

As mentioned in previous posts, this is probably my tediously boring standard move from Christianity to doubting other things, but I am not so sure. 

Mentally tired, so sorry if the above was a rant. In the process of moving house and finding it painful! Definitely immoral - I am swung
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 1:06 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 5, 2024 at 3:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 5, 2024 at 3:31 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:40 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 5, 2024 at 3:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - June 5, 2024 at 3:47 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 3:52 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 5, 2024 at 5:22 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 5:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 5, 2024 at 5:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 5:39 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Nay_Sayer - June 5, 2024 at 7:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 5, 2024 at 9:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 5, 2024 at 10:18 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 6, 2024 at 7:14 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 7:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 6, 2024 at 7:38 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 7:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 6, 2024 at 8:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 8:32 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 6, 2024 at 8:40 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - June 6, 2024 at 8:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 6, 2024 at 8:34 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Nanny - June 7, 2024 at 9:28 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 9:29 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 7, 2024 at 10:19 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 10:39 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 10, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 7:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 11, 2024 at 12:24 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 12:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 11, 2024 at 3:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 12, 2024 at 3:25 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 12:53 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 1:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - June 7, 2024 at 1:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 1:49 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 1:55 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 2:07 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 2:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 7, 2024 at 2:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 7, 2024 at 4:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 5:07 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2024 at 8:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 10:13 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2024 at 12:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 1:11 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Questor - June 8, 2024 at 7:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 8, 2024 at 8:02 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Questor - June 9, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:26 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 9:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2024 at 1:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 8, 2024 at 2:57 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Questor - June 8, 2024 at 7:39 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 9, 2024 at 7:01 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 8, 2024 at 7:05 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 2:39 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:52 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 9, 2024 at 2:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 3:03 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 9:53 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 9, 2024 at 9:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 9:48 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - June 9, 2024 at 10:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 9, 2024 at 11:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 10:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 9, 2024 at 4:54 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 10, 2024 at 5:03 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by brewer - June 9, 2024 at 10:53 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2024 at 11:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 10, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2024 at 12:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 10, 2024 at 12:11 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 10, 2024 at 12:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 7:23 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 11, 2024 at 12:33 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 11, 2024 at 12:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 16, 2024 at 3:10 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Thumpalumpacus - June 21, 2024 at 1:12 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2024 at 11:18 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 16, 2024 at 11:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Paleophyte - June 17, 2024 at 10:56 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 17, 2024 at 11:52 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Paleophyte - June 18, 2024 at 4:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 18, 2024 at 2:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Thumpalumpacus - June 21, 2024 at 1:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - June 18, 2024 at 2:19 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 18, 2024 at 2:26 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by h311inac311 - June 19, 2024 at 10:22 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 19, 2024 at 12:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Belacqua - June 19, 2024 at 7:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Paleophyte - June 20, 2024 at 2:38 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Belacqua - June 21, 2024 at 12:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Mister Agenda - June 20, 2024 at 11:40 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 20, 2024 at 2:42 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 21, 2024 at 2:19 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 22, 2024 at 3:24 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by h311inac311 - June 21, 2024 at 6:56 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - June 22, 2024 at 3:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - June 22, 2024 at 11:09 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Elek_the_Chthonaut - July 2, 2024 at 12:03 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 2, 2024 at 12:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 3, 2024 at 2:51 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 4:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 7:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 7:29 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 7:39 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 7:42 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 8:16 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 8:28 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 9:41 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 9:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 9:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 10:02 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 10:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 10:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 10:49 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 7, 2024 at 11:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 7, 2024 at 12:00 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 2:05 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 8, 2024 at 8:50 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Thumpalumpacus - July 8, 2024 at 9:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 7, 2024 at 7:24 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 7, 2024 at 7:54 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 7, 2024 at 8:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 7:25 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 11:15 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - July 8, 2024 at 8:51 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 11:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 8, 2024 at 12:09 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 2:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 8, 2024 at 2:17 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 2:39 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 11:57 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 1:31 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 12:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 1:57 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 8, 2024 at 2:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2024 at 2:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 8, 2024 at 2:00 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:37 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:50 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:51 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:52 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 2:54 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 2:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 9, 2024 at 3:00 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 9, 2024 at 3:09 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 9, 2024 at 6:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 9, 2024 at 4:26 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 9:40 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 10:03 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 11:13 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 11:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 12:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 12:51 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 17, 2024 at 2:02 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 6:10 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 17, 2024 at 6:42 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 10:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 10:29 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 11:30 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 11:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 17, 2024 at 1:59 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 12:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 12:58 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:08 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 1:15 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 1:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:19 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:16 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:21 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:20 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:22 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:22 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 17, 2024 at 1:40 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 17, 2024 at 2:27 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:33 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 1:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:42 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:41 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 17, 2024 at 1:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 1:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 2:14 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:18 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 2:21 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 17, 2024 at 2:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 4:50 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 5:02 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 5:04 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 6:03 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 6:24 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 17, 2024 at 6:40 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 3:57 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 18, 2024 at 5:31 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 1:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 2:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:28 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Ahriman - July 17, 2024 at 2:47 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 17, 2024 at 2:51 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 17, 2024 at 2:56 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 1:37 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 8:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 11:33 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 12:27 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 18, 2024 at 9:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Silver - July 18, 2024 at 9:14 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 2:01 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 2:30 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 18, 2024 at 4:53 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 18, 2024 at 2:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 2:43 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 18, 2024 at 2:44 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2024 at 7:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 19, 2024 at 7:11 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 19, 2024 at 11:08 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 25, 2024 at 8:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 12:33 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 25, 2024 at 2:29 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 2:36 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2024 at 4:58 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 26, 2024 at 4:59 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2024 at 2:15 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 2:45 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2024 at 10:20 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 11:46 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 11:47 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 27, 2024 at 7:54 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 25, 2024 at 3:25 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 3:28 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 25, 2024 at 3:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 25, 2024 at 3:32 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2024 at 5:34 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 27, 2024 at 7:55 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - July 25, 2024 at 5:21 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - July 26, 2024 at 7:04 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 26, 2024 at 1:46 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 27, 2024 at 2:54 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Angrboda - July 27, 2024 at 7:44 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2024 at 12:37 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 28, 2024 at 2:21 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - July 27, 2024 at 8:07 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 28, 2024 at 4:27 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - August 1, 2024 at 10:00 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Sheldon - August 1, 2024 at 11:14 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - August 1, 2024 at 12:05 pm
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - August 1, 2024 at 11:18 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by The Grand Nudger - July 28, 2024 at 4:22 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Lucian - July 28, 2024 at 4:30 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by no one - August 1, 2024 at 11:06 am
RE: Atheism and Ethics - by Disagreeable - August 4, 2024 at 9:51 am

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