Atheism and Ethics

[Lucian]

As for mind independence, I'd suggest that the way you've employed the term literally everything in the universe is mind dependent.  It means more than just existing as or accurate as an opinion in a mind in metaethical theory.  It means existing nowhere else and being accurate of nothing else but.

So this mind independent thing is a sticking point for me and I seem to be misunderstanding something. If something is mind independent it exists even if no one is aware of it, it doesn’t require a mind for it to be real, such as the colour red does. So the way I have employed it almost everything in the universe is mind-independent. I am however denying that there is anything that can be called a moral standard that is such as that. A belief in such a thing does seem to run through most moral realist stuff I have seen so far, eg. It doesn’t matter whether anyone things torture for the shits and giggles is wrong;it just is regardless of what people believe. 

Also, I totally get that metaethics isn’t giving an answer to any one question, and I don’t think I am trying to make it do that. Whether it can be grounded in some natural phenomenon, such as harm, is relevant to a discussion of metaethics as not all positions argue for that, and the issues and argument differ depending on whether that is being argued for

Re the immorality point. I was trying to get at the fact that an explanation of moral actions that do not function as a reduction of harm do need discussion. If everything resolves down to a question of harm grounding morality then it seems something important has been missed off.