Atheism and Ethics

[Lucian]

So this mind independent thing is a sticking point for me and I seem to be misunderstanding something. If something is mind independent it exists even if no one is aware of it, it doesn’t require a mind for it to be real, such as the colour red does. So the way I have employed it almost everything in the universe is mind-independent. I am however denying that there is anything that can be called a moral standard that is such as that. A belief in such a thing does seem to run through most moral realist stuff I have seen so far, eg. It doesn’t matter whether anyone things torture for the shits and giggles is wrong;it just is regardless of what people believe. 

Well, I thought we'd agreed on at least one objective standard?  You and I both accept that a thing can be objectively harmful regardless of whether or not someone get's a kick out of it - that a thing can be objectively harmful regardless of personal or public ignorance.  No?

i actually think we disagree that this is a standard. Harm is indeed measurable and objective, but harm itself is not a standard it is a matter of physics chemistry and biology. A standard can be applied to it, where more harm is bad and less harm good, and luckily we both subscribe to that. The question of whether that standard is down to a moral realist conception of morality being accurage though is the dispute. I mentioned it being objectively bad regardless of what people think earlier as an example of a typical moral realist position that I have heard / read.

A harm basis (like moral realism) can be natural or non natural or a mix.  A harm basis can also fail to be objective.

That is an interesting point I had never considered. Much like I am a hybrid non-realist never really considered that realists can be hybrid also. 

 just an example, not a question I expect you to answer

PHEW