(July 17, 2009 at 1:18 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote:(July 16, 2009 at 7:09 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:It seems you haven't read my last posting here. There I give a reason why the physical does not equate to the mental, but still from a monistic physicalistic view.(July 16, 2009 at 1:59 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: I'll give a more specific reaction later but as for now I would say this:
If the concept of the number five will prove to coinicide with a certain configuration of (a part of) atoms and electrons in the brain, we still haven't shown that the concept of five IS IDENTICAL TO that configuration. A set of electrons Y may correspond to a mental state X, that does not mean that it IS the mental state X. By stating that all thought is mechanical you neglect to prove this identification. The concept of 'I', though as real as can be, is not identical to a set of electrons in the brain. You're mixing the conceptual level of existence with the physical level.
I am not arguing that free will is impossible. I know that I haven't proved that the concept of the 'I' is just part of what goes on - the electrons etc? - in the physical brain. I'm not trying to prove that. I'm just saying that there's no reason to believe rationally, and logically - because there's no evidence - that there's anything extra to the mechanics. On the matter of concepts - there's no (rational) reason to believe that concepts themelves aren't mechanical, right? There's no evidence (as far as I know anyway?) that everything that exists isn't mechanical...that this isn't a mechanical universe, right?..That just, flows?
I'm just sticking with the least complex hypothesis because I know of no evidence for the non-mechanical. Ultimately anything that we think of as 'not mechanical' is all controlled by mechanics! (as far as I know?). The mechanics of the universe...? The universe just flows mechanically whether it's deterministic or indeterministic, yeah?
Like I said - as far as I know. I'm really curious to see if anyone can (somehow? I dunno what it would look like (or be like)) 'show me otherwise'.
EvF
That you're simply asserting that the mental = the physical without evidence in the face of contrary arguments is exactly why you should evaluate the multiple realizability argument. There is no identity relation. An identity relation (i.e. X=Y) works two ways: given X you get exactly Y, given Y you get exactly X. Delve into it.
Sorry I don't understand because, despite the fact on the one hand "physical" is the opposite to "mental" - my point is that everything we think of as "mental", including it's concept; is made up out of matter in the physical universe...right (as far as we know?)? Because its concept is made out of matter too. Within our brains...everything that really exists, as far as we know - is phyiscal matter in this materialistic universe in which we liv,e right?
So whether we call it physical or not, or say "mental" is the opposite to physical and therefore "Not physical" - that doesn't stop all these "mental" concepts actually being made up of physical matter within our brains, right? So everything "mental" when it comes down to it is ultimately physical matter too, by definition; in the sense that the whole concept(s) exist in our brains...physically (as far as we know, right? Is there any reason to believe there's anything non-physical in our brains? As an exception?).
And if you are not talking about the concept of the "mental"'s actual existence within our brains (which is physical)...then how exactly does anything mental exist? If exists physically in our brains?
I don't see how I'm mixing the conceptual level with the physical levelother than saying that concepts exist physically within our brains, which do you agree, is correct? So even concepts are physical? As far as we know, ultimately, everything is? Unless you know of any exceptions?
Mentality isn't exactly the opposite to the physical when our "mind"s - as far as I we know - exist entirely physically and it's called our "brain"s. If the mind exists at all, there's only evidence that it's the brain and it's physical! So in that sense the two aren't exactly opposites!
The concept of mentality is only the opposite if the mind exists separate to be brain and is shown not to be physical (however that
would be done???).
Because, until then...as far as I know even the concept, the idea - completely lacking evidence - of mentality being non-physical...is actually physical. Such an idea, such as concept - is stored within our brains.
EvF
