Atheism feels shunned...

[Edwardo Piet]

Evie asked me to prove that thought isn't a physical thing.

Because far as I know this is a physical universe that (at least seems to!) follow physical laws. So I needed to know a reason to believe that thought is an exception. It is 'mental' which is often thought as opposed to physical....but since I'm a materialist and I believe the mind is the brain and the brain is an entirely physical thing...I would think any 'thought' that goes on in my head are physical particles and not something that is an exception to the rest of the known universe. If by non-physical you mean it's mental and (at least so far!) undetectable by science, fine. But I mean it's physical in the sense that - it's part of the physical universe and isn't separate to the laws of physics - as far as I know! - I assume until any evidence is provided for me to believe it's somehow an exception, somehow not part of the physical universe, and somehow able to have an effect on the physical without being physical, without following physical laws!

To reiterate: The brain is physical, I'm a materialist, what goes on in the brain is physical (just like I believe everything else in the universe is)...so I believe thought is physical and if the 'mind' exists, it's the brain or what goes on in there, physically, following physics. You can say that 'mental' doesn't equal 'physical', but I believe the mind is an entirely physical, material thing called the brain, due to me being a materialist.

1. Thought passes all tests for something that doesn't physically exist: you can't hear it, see it, touch it, smell it.

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We can't. How does this prove it isn't physical?

And how do you know some alien race out there can't detect thoughts in such a way?

And whether it can or can't...I see no reason to believe thought is in anyway separate to the rest of the physical universe, or indeed - the physical brain.

Thought uses physical medium as transport but thought isn't the transport. Thought uses air, electricity, paint, ink etc. Thought is the rider on that transport. It's never the transport. It is always separate. Thought is created by a physical process in the brain, which is physical. Thought is communicated through physical medium but remains non physical. Thought can be enacted upon to produce physical effect but then ceases to be thought.

2. Thought fails all tests for something that exists.

Whatever we 'think of' as our thoughts ("I think therefore I am") is our thoughts, right? When we think "X" then that=us thinking and our thought... - I see no reason to make these thoughts that go on in my head (and others' heads) an exception the physical universe. I assume they physically go on in my physical brain whether detected by tests by us or not.

My point is that there's no reason to believe they aren't part of the physical universe, don't follow the physical universe, that they are in that sense "special" in anyway - or that they aren't made up of physical matter! Whether touchable/visable/smellable, etc, etc - or not! This doesn't mean they're "different" or "special" in the sense of not part of the physical universe, not following the laws of physics or not made up of physical matter - just that they aren't physically detectable at least yet at least by us, the human race.

Evie asserts that there is such a thing as a physical thought. I call bogus as there's no such allowance in the term 'physical'.

I just assume thoughts physically exist in the brain whether we can touch them or not! The mind is material, it's the brain! Are materialists not allowed so say the brain is physical because it's opposed to mental?

Well I need a word or two different to "mind" and "thought" that can be material versions then(!).

How would thoughts not follow physical laws and not be part of the universe? People will say something is "mental" and "not physical", but I just mean that "mental" is physical; in the sense that it's made up of physical matter, part of the physical universe, following physical laws - and I know of no reason to make it an exception to the physical universe!!

3. I assert that thought doesn't exist physically.

So it's not part of the physical universe then? We may say mental isn't phyiscal...but in the sense that thoughts I assume follows the physics of this universe that we live in, and are made up of matter, are material in this materialistic universe - how are they not physical? I don't mean you can touch them!

Evie holds that theoretically, thought is a physical substance yet unknown. On that presumption Evie feels justified in classifying thought as a physical entity because everything else in this physical universe is physical so thought must be too. My far from perfect analogy was that because a playground consisted of 99 girls and 1 boy, by his logic Evie would conclude that the playground contains 100 girls. He dismisses the boy because the boy has no other comparable examples so then can't be evidence of something which exists.

It's a false analogy because about half of the people on this planet are boys! So if I know of 99 girls I'm not going to assume the 100th is girl if there's still a 50/50 chance (about) that the remaining child is just as likely to be a boy! Unless it's a playground entirely for girls or something!

What I'm saying is that as far as I know everything in the universe is physical, this is a physical universe that follows physical laws. And just because thought isn't something you can touch, etc, physically - doesn't mean it's not physical in the sense of separate to the physical universe, not made of matter and not entirely materialistic!

A correct analogy would be perhaps more like ( and I will try to attempt this analogy lol):....In a hypothetical existence, if every particle in the universe had a gender...and as far as we know 100% of the particles that we ever had any evidence for were made up of something you could call "girl particles"....and no one had ever seen any strange thing called a "boy particle"....and yet just because 1 particle is undetectable it's assumed to be a "boy particle" simply because it's not proven to be a girl one!

I would be saying "Why assume it's some strange thing called a "boy particle" that you speak of (whatever that is), why make an exception? Considering that everything we have evidence of so far appears to be a girl particle...isn't it much more likely that it's just not detectable by us and yet it's still a girl particle? Why would it be an exception just because our science (at least yet) can't reach it? I mean, I [b]still/b] believe it's a girl particle because I have no reason to believe it's not part of this girly universe and that it doesn't follow its girly laws! Where is this "boy" particle that you speak of? If you mean "boy" to mean "doesn't pass the tests for girl" fine, but I mean it's actually "girl" in the sense why believe it doesn't follow girly laws and isn't part of this girly particle universe! That it isn't physically... a girl particle that is simply undetectable!"



""Hidden girl", or "Girl at least thus far undetectable by science" I think would make more sense. I see no reason to believe it's an exception to the girly universe or is actually this "boy" that you speak of. If by "boy" you just mean assumed to be the same as girl but undetectable, fine. But then it's still actually girly and follows the girly laws like everything else I assume! It's just a "hidden girl", just not detected by our science (at least as of yet). Why make an exception and say it isn't part of the girly universe and isn't a girly particle made up out of girly matter! Just because we can't detect it with our science yet!".

Lol, well I've attempted the analogy anyway

But anyway the point is that your analogy fails because a boy or girl is a 50/50 chance, it's not as though "there's no evidence for the existence of any boys so why believe that the unknown child is a boy!" - We don't live in that reality! It could very easily be a boy amongst girls in this reality obviously because it's pretty much a 50/50 thing here! Unless it's an all girl playground or something!

EvF