RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question!
July 18, 2009 at 6:52 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2009 at 6:57 pm by Jon Paul.)
EvF, I am afraid that we are simply talking in two different directions. I had two parts of my foundations for transcendental monotheism: metaphysics built on empirical observations of reality, neccesitating Gods existence for the actuality of our reality, and, the epistemological necessity for transcendental monotheism.
Now, you are addressing the epistemological part, with an evidentialist approach. That is not going to work, because the epistemological part addresses the very nature of epistemic foundations, and thus the conditions necessary to say that anything can be taken as valid proof/evidence for an objective truth, or in other words, an objective epistemic foundation for a given contention. The only other option than to integrate this objectivity into your epistemic structure, is to claim that you will simply use subjective proof as a starting point, but then it is just that - subjective. Any other person can claim another subjective conclusion if there is no objective standard for objective epistemic foundations for logical truth to begin with. And then you have no way to say anything objectively about reality as an atheist, because no integral part of your epistemic structure transcends the abstractions of your own mind.
If you are not talking about objective epistemic foundations for the belief that reality exists, you are merely talking of subjective abstractions, which is not something which provides an objective epistemic foundation for the belief that reality exists - only subjective, in which case you cannot adscribe to it any truth that transcends your own mind. In either case, you are unable to propose anything objectively about reality as an atheist.
Now, you are addressing the epistemological part, with an evidentialist approach. That is not going to work, because the epistemological part addresses the very nature of epistemic foundations, and thus the conditions necessary to say that anything can be taken as valid proof/evidence for an objective truth, or in other words, an objective epistemic foundation for a given contention. The only other option than to integrate this objectivity into your epistemic structure, is to claim that you will simply use subjective proof as a starting point, but then it is just that - subjective. Any other person can claim another subjective conclusion if there is no objective standard for objective epistemic foundations for logical truth to begin with. And then you have no way to say anything objectively about reality as an atheist, because no integral part of your epistemic structure transcends the abstractions of your own mind.
(July 18, 2009 at 6:30 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: No, I'm saying there's evidence for reality in science for example - the consensus. Objective in the sense of existence;What do you mean there is evidence for reality? Do you mean with "evidence", objective epistemic foundations for the belief that reality exists? If so, you are begging the question of an objective standard which transcends subjectivity, for epistemic foundations, and that is simply not consistent with a non-monotheistic epistemic structure, which provides no objective standard for logical truth, except abstractions of the brain chemistry, and then you are contradicting your own epistemic structure.
If you are not talking about objective epistemic foundations for the belief that reality exists, you are merely talking of subjective abstractions, which is not something which provides an objective epistemic foundation for the belief that reality exists - only subjective, in which case you cannot adscribe to it any truth that transcends your own mind. In either case, you are unable to propose anything objectively about reality as an atheist.
(July 18, 2009 at 6:30 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: and I am wondering where the evidence is for any objective 'truth' as in absolute truth - that we can absolutely knowI've already shown you the error there lies in this question. You cannot provide objective epistemic foundations for the existence of objective epistemic foundations, without begging the question or presupposing it to exist. Either you commit the fallacy of begging the question, or you presuppose it to exist on grounds of proper basicality (that it is integral in your epistemic structure), but since that contradicts a non-monotheistic epistemic structure, you are then in fallacy again.
(July 18, 2009 at 6:30 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: and (if you wish to know) I also - more specifically - need evidence to believe there are any morals or values whatsoever that are objective.Read the first paragraph in this post if you want to understand why that question completely talks in another direction than what I meant with "objective epistemic foundations" for moral truth.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton