(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: Wouldn't that be more an instinct than a thought (if they were having some activity in their heads they were unaware of)?
Not necessarily. Humans too have a lot of activity in their brain that they are unaware of. Usually, we refer to them as conditioning or subconscious thought.
(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: Many predators success rates are very much dependent on their ability to determine when it is time to chase and when it is not, or when to ignore their hunger (in some cases literally starving) to avoid blowing an ambush, or to single out a better target. This again seems to be an issue of creating criteria that favor human beings and then declaring us the winner. We have absolutely no idea how "rich" the inner lives of animals is, (because of barriers to communication), but anytime their actions would seem to imply something that we would recognize as thought it is immediately dismissed as innate, or ingrained. Well, I'm going to start dismissing all human thought or the effects or actions taken as a consequence of those thoughts as innate, and ingrained.
You do realize that I accept that some animals do have free-will?
I wouldn't dismiss all animal behavior as instinctual or learned. And yes, communication is a barrier. But your point is well-taken. We have no idea about an animal's inner life, whether it is rich or not. The scientific knowledge is simply not there yet.
(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: The wolf above then, not acting on it's impulses (when it is starving and yet forgoes the chase)? Problem solving cephalopods that open jars or escape their containment despite being in a completely alien environment interacting with completely alien objects? Don't biological impulses and learned behaviors cover a pretty wide range of the human experience as well?
In the case of the wolf, I'm withholding judgement based upon lack of knowledge. Its actions may not be instinctual, but they may still be conditioned.
In case of cephalopods, I had not considered them before. But based on the evidence I have found, I've decided to include them in the list of animals who can be considered to have free-will.
And in case of humans - pretty wide range - yes. The complete range - no. It is that gap in which free-will can exist.
(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: Our biology allows for curiosity, reason, and memory, our conditioning compels us to leverage them (except when it doesn't). How exactly, would this not allow for new information to be developed? I'm perfectly willing to concede that we are superior to other animals in this regard. That's the niche we've devolped to fill. Do we have a capacity for thought that is independent of our biology? How have you determined this?
Biology allows for curiosity, reason and memory but does not compel it. And conditioning does not always compel us. The both together are not causally sufficient.
(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: If a qualifier is "self awareness" then maybe we should take a dispassionate view of self awareness and propose that it may not express itself in other species in the same way that it expresses itself in us (anthropic bias).
I do.
(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: For example, is some level of "self awareness" required for social interaction and communication? I would say so. Again, if we're talking about levels of this or that, then we're talking about levels of "free will."
I wouldn't. A great amount of social interaction in the animal kingdom is purely instinctual, without any need for self-awareness.
(February 10, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: "Yes, animals have free will(insert whatever you like here in place of free will with regards to mental capacity), but not as much free will as us, based upon metrics that are favorable to us".
or
"No, animals do not have free will(again, substitute whatever you like), based on metrics that are favorable to us".
As I've said, it may be that these are valid metrics, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the strong possibility that we're playing fast and loose with the rules of the game we've created.
That is so not what I said. What I said is
"Yes, all animals have consciousness, but not at the same advanced level as us. However, only a particular level is required for free-will and all animals above that level would have free-will. Whether is "as much" free will as us, I have no idea, since I don't know how to measure free will".
