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I am an orthodox Christian, ask me a question!
#73
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question!
(July 25, 2009 at 8:54 pm)amw79 Wrote: Back to your original statements. Maybe I've missed something in the rambling theological language you constantly use, but your argument seems to be: Atheism is logically flawed because it rejects the notion that there is an 'objective moral truth'. Therefore everything else must be subjective and necessarily false, including atheism.
No, that is not "my argument". This is a gross perversion of my epistemological comparison between the epistemic structure of a Christian, monotheistic worldview with atheist, nonmonotheistic worldviews.

I don't have time for repeating what I have already said, so I will quote myself first:
(July 19, 2009 at 8:29 am)Jon Paul Wrote:
(July 19, 2009 at 8:01 am)LEDO Wrote: What the fuck is "moral truth?" Is there "immoral truth."
The expression 'moral truth' doesn't refer to morally judging a 'truth'. It refers to moral truths as such, that is, objective epistemic foundations for moral standards. Immorality is specifically a negation of 'morality' which follows from the judgement that something does not live up to given moral standard. It already presupposes moral truth.
(July 19, 2009 at 2:52 pm)Jon Paul Wrote: If anyone still hasn't understood this, I have presented two different foundations for my transcendental monotheology.

One is the a posteriori argument from empirical observation of the (meta)physics of reality.

The other is the epistemological impossibility of the contrary being true (e.g. the fact a non-monotheological/atheist/naturalist epistemic structure accounts only for the abstractions of subjective brain chemistry, not a transcendental objective truth, and therefore can't possible be true according to its own epistemology).
What you are addressing is not the a posteriori argument, it's the second, epistemological part (which you haven't understood very well).
(July 25, 2009 at 8:54 pm)amw79 Wrote: If this is an attempt to produce a logical fallacy, its woefully inadequate. Firstly you're lumping together morality and truth, when the two things are entirely seperate. Some things are objectively true regardless of belief (or non-belief) system, or morality i.e. The Earth orbits the sun.

Morality is a human concept which changes between cultures, over time etc. The very fact that our morality has developed and improved over time (i.e. slavery is now generally considered a bit of a no-no, despite its embedded history in cultural practice) goes to show that morality is a pliable concept.
You are begging the question and presupposing that there cannot be a such thing as moral truth. You are begging the question that moral affirmations can only be relative and subjective. Which is fine. Proves nothing, except that you can at least see what kind of perspective on morality your worldview mandates.

What I am doing is not 'lumping morality and truth together', but simply analysing different worldviews which either deny that there can be moral and logical truth or affirm it. Atheism is an example of the former, Christian monotheism of the latter.

And I mention two kinds of truths that the epistemic structure (e.g. that which can be possibly known according to a worldviews own presuppositions) of a non-monotheistic worldview cannot affirm as transcending subjective minds: logical and moral truth. Which is simply to say, objective epistemic foundations which warrant logical and moral judgements.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton



Messages In This Thread
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 17, 2009 at 5:40 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Tiberius - July 17, 2009 at 4:47 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by fr0d0 - July 17, 2009 at 5:43 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Eilonnwy - August 20, 2009 at 8:55 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 20, 2009 at 4:11 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 17, 2009 at 8:08 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 18, 2009 at 11:56 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - July 18, 2009 at 12:33 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 18, 2009 at 1:06 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 18, 2009 at 3:12 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 18, 2009 at 5:16 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 17, 2009 at 6:29 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 17, 2009 at 7:17 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by padraic - July 17, 2009 at 10:18 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Dotard - July 18, 2009 at 7:56 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Tabby - July 18, 2009 at 11:45 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 18, 2009 at 6:04 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 18, 2009 at 6:52 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 11:19 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 19, 2009 at 8:01 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 8:29 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 19, 2009 at 8:46 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 8:57 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 19, 2009 at 1:45 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 1:57 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 19, 2009 at 5:10 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - July 19, 2009 at 12:05 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 12:29 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - July 19, 2009 at 12:37 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 1:00 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 19, 2009 at 6:01 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by LEDO - July 22, 2009 at 6:01 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Darwinian - July 19, 2009 at 1:31 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 1:37 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 19, 2009 at 2:52 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by fr0d0 - July 19, 2009 at 3:36 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 23, 2009 at 5:57 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 23, 2009 at 8:59 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 23, 2009 at 6:54 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by padraic - July 23, 2009 at 7:37 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by freddo - July 23, 2009 at 10:06 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 24, 2009 at 8:24 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 24, 2009 at 12:58 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by padraic - July 24, 2009 at 12:36 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by freddo - July 24, 2009 at 1:14 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by padraic - July 24, 2009 at 2:43 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 24, 2009 at 3:33 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 24, 2009 at 4:58 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 25, 2009 at 9:02 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - July 25, 2009 at 8:54 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 25, 2009 at 9:34 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - July 25, 2009 at 10:02 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 26, 2009 at 8:59 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 26, 2009 at 11:08 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 26, 2009 at 2:35 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 26, 2009 at 4:02 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 26, 2009 at 6:34 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 27, 2009 at 1:59 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 27, 2009 at 7:17 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 27, 2009 at 6:07 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 28, 2009 at 11:21 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by bozo - July 27, 2009 at 7:18 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by padraic - July 28, 2009 at 1:56 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 28, 2009 at 9:41 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 28, 2009 at 10:13 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - July 29, 2009 at 12:23 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - July 29, 2009 at 4:14 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - July 30, 2009 at 1:34 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 8:53 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 9:51 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 10:27 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 10:34 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 10:46 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 11:52 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 3:50 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 4:44 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 4:53 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 5:35 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 5:42 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 4, 2009 at 5:49 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 8:38 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 5, 2009 at 4:25 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 3, 2009 at 3:10 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 3, 2009 at 3:43 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 4, 2009 at 11:06 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 11:32 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 4, 2009 at 1:06 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by fr0d0 - August 4, 2009 at 2:55 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 4, 2009 at 4:01 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 5, 2009 at 10:41 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 5, 2009 at 11:48 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 5, 2009 at 2:49 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 5, 2009 at 4:49 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 5, 2009 at 5:18 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 5, 2009 at 5:38 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 5, 2009 at 6:11 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 5, 2009 at 6:21 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 5, 2009 at 6:47 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 6, 2009 at 3:00 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 2:26 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 5, 2009 at 12:23 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - August 5, 2009 at 9:04 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 5, 2009 at 9:17 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - August 5, 2009 at 9:35 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 11:51 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 6, 2009 at 12:48 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 1:09 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 6, 2009 at 2:11 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 2:19 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 6, 2009 at 5:09 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 5:26 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 5:50 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 9:00 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Edwardo Piet - August 6, 2009 at 4:54 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 6, 2009 at 3:36 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 6, 2009 at 12:25 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 12:39 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 6, 2009 at 3:07 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 3:33 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 6, 2009 at 6:40 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 6:44 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 9:20 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by padraic - August 6, 2009 at 10:17 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 6, 2009 at 11:01 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by chatpilot - August 6, 2009 at 11:09 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 8:42 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 7, 2009 at 11:26 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 11:32 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by amw79 - August 7, 2009 at 11:48 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 12:51 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 3:40 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Ace Otana - August 8, 2009 at 8:27 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 8, 2009 at 9:43 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Ace Otana - August 8, 2009 at 11:11 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 8, 2009 at 11:39 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Dotard - August 7, 2009 at 5:06 pm
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by SilentDon - August 7, 2009 at 2:29 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Dotard - August 7, 2009 at 10:08 am
RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question! - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 10:14 am

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