I am an orthodox Christian, ask me a question!

[amw79]

But the problem with this is that you say, "objective morality can only come from god, so atheists can't have any say in matters moral, as that would be subjective" But I say, morality comes from people, and as such, I'm very well qualified to make moral judgements.

And that's exactly what my argument says that you say.

Your argument is based on an assumption that morality has to be objective,

.. to transcend subjective minds and thus have any bearing which is more than subjective. For any subjective individuals viewpoint is as good as any others, if it is merely subjective and there is no objective standard (God) which transcends ALL of them, as in Christianity.

I don't believe that you need an "outside, transcendent standard" to talk about morality, since morality is a human invention

Again you repeat what I already know, that morality is in your view merely the invention and convention of subjective minds.

So unless you have evidence that a) morality is objective, and b) is god-given, you're simply asserting.

I am indeed simply asserting and analysing what morality is in one worldview, and what it is in another. In the atheist worldview, morality is merely a matter of subjective convention, and has no objective authority beyond the authority of any other subjective idea, and since you can come up with your own subjective view of it, there is no way any convention of morality is an authority over subjective individuals. All that remains is subjective minds and arbitrary ideas which can be ignored with no transcendental consequence. Indeed there is no "wrong" or "right", no "good" or "evil", these are just arbitrary human subjective abstractions; nothing is less permitted than anything else: everything is permitted, as long as it's possible within the realm of reality. Killing 20 babies and raping their dead bodies? Fine. No problem.

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I judge god by our terrestrial laws and moral codes not so called divine mandates.And I don't believe that without god there would be no morality or the ability to discern right from wrong.

But those "terrestrial laws and moral codes" have no objective or transcendental authority over a non-existing God or anyone else. They are merely subjective arbitrary conventions, a product of human minds.

Morality in my opinion is a societal and cultural phenomenon just like religion.

Surprise! Well, that's weird, because that's exactly what I've been saying from the beginning that atheism reduces morality to: subjective arbitrary convention with no transcendent bearing or objective authority. "Good" and "evil" become meaningless terms.. subjective and arbitrary abstractions, that's all.

Again, your argument is based on your being convinced that as morality comes from god, anything else is 'merely subjective', and thus carries no weight. This is your error.

First of all you've still provided no evidence that morality is a) objective, or b) comes from god, so without backing up your premise, your assumed consequences carry no authority.

Morality is consensus based, on the basis that humans are born so alike and share such simliar experiences, that we have evolved sets of codes for living. These codes become 'good ideas', so much so, that we base laws on them. Consensus is the key. If you survey 10,000,000 people and 10,000,000 say that stealing is wrong, than thats a good scientific basis for saying thats its as close to objectively true as we can get.

For you to say stealing is objectively wrong, because it says "Thou shalt not steal" in a book written thousands of years ago is ludricrous. Not to mention that most cultures had come to the conclusions that killing and stealing are wrong, long before religions highjacked the ideas.

You're killing and raping of babies comment, is such a strawman fallacy, I won't dignify it with a direct response.

Quick Edit.

"atheism reduces morality to[/b]: subjective arbitrary convention with no transcendent bearing or objective authority"

Nonsense, atheism elevates morality to set of practical ideals which we can aspire to acheive and live; above the notion that its a divine dictat, which must be followed to the letter for the rest of time, on pain of eternal damnation.

What about the "Honour thy Father and Mother" "commandment", surely you realise this is morally reprehensible for a child who's been systematically abused by their parent(s) all their life, to honour their abuser....