RE: Whats even attractive about Christianity anyway that people want to stay in ignorance
March 6, 2012 at 11:50 am
(This post was last modified: March 6, 2012 at 12:03 pm by Voltair.)
Back to the idea that Christianity/God is about love and it is sad that people follow it to avoid punishment. God defined sin in the first place and he is the one who decided what the punishment would be. God also designed man to be able to sin all supposedly in the idea of having people choose to love him. So God, knowing most men would not and therefore perish, created billions of people to have most of them suffer so that he could have the pleasure of a few of them loving him.
If God's "justice" is unavoidable than the loving thing for him to do was to never create men in the first place. However God created men to serve/love HIM and he decided it was acceptable for most of men to be created regardless of their fate so HE could get what HE wanted. Can it be selfish to create something just so it will love/worship you? Absolutely, creating something so that it will love me and tell me how wonderful I am is selfish and egotistical.
Many of Christianities pre-science ideas are probably being reinterpreted in light of scientific discoveries. Isn't it interesting that people who were so invested in scripture just missed that supposed "germ theory" reference in Leviticus. It is terribly convenient that when SCIENCE discovers something only THEN does Christianity supposedly reveal that it knew it first. Its terribly convenient that people only seem to realize those things after the fact.
You seem to be really bent on this idea that all other religions save Christianity have this big ulterior motive. You have also repeatedly ignored the ideas that Christianity is built in such a way to allow for just as many "selfish" desires. Again I would ask you if there wasn't punishment for sin would you sin? Although to be honest many things that are dictated as sin I, and other atheists, don't want to do anyway. In fact according to Christian standards we don't do anything too bad. However the idea is that any one thing sends you to the fryer which is why we need God according to Christianity. God is the one who is in control so therefore the only reason things are so nitpicky is HE designed it that way.
People can try whatever philosophical mind games they want but if God is truly all in control then the consequence of sin, the ability for man to sin, and everything else ultimately falls back on him. He has the power, the control, and the foreknowledge supposedly so he also has the responsibility in this case. Suffering, punishment, etc are all results of God's decisions and selfishness in the original creation of mankind.
As far as proving inconsistencies with the Bible goes I don't even need to go there and here is why. All of Christianities miraculous claims are contained only inside of scripture. Even some of its history such as herod's massacres, Israel's massive conquering, the mass exodus of slaves, the Egyptian army at the bottom of the red sea (save the fake chariot wheel they found the ONE fake one), Solomon's reign, and many others. Maybe the evidence was just destroyed etc but that is speculation. Maybe the evidence for Zeus was destroyed too. It is pure useless speculation.
The Bible's formation etc was done by the hands of men. You can say they were inspired but they were still men. More specifically the Bible you enjoy today has a long history with the Catholic church who we all know is completely interested in preserving only what is true. The Old Testament is really not ever going to be proven conclusively. As far as K.A. Kitchens reliability of the Old Testament goes he points out little snippets of things but I don't recall anything mind blowing about Israel.
You are right Christianity is gaining grounds in countries that are controlled, such as China, and countries where superstition and illiteracy is high I.E. Africa. I am not impressed by that especially after going on mission trips myself. We did medical missions where we did studies with people who chances are know very little information and some can't even read. It is not hard to convince someone in that state that the Bible is true especially if they are predisposed to superstitions etc. It is not because they are stupid it is due to information suppression. I believe it was Fredrick Douglass who said “Once you learn to read, you will be forever free.” China is notorious for controlling the flow of information anyway. By the way I think you are going to be hard pressed to prove that China's prosperity is due to religion. It is an economic success enjoyed by all of that business they do etc as far as I can tell anyway.
I am tired of hearing the "Christianity is leaving America so it is going down" idea. I really hope that the ECONOMIC forces that are at work don't crush America. It will also be nice if America bounces back and secularizes while still prospering. It will smack that ridiculous idea that being a Christian nation is what made America so prosperous. A lot of the business, industry, building structures, etc that made America prosperous were not exactly due to "Christianity".
By the way I completely agree with you that the Indian Guru's "miracles" would be easily disproven. The problem is you are telling me that Jesus miracles were real based SOLELY and ENTIRELY on the words of others and a book containing gospels written at least 20 years or so after Jesus supposed death. I never understood how Christian's say their faith is based in Jesus/God when without those other people mentioning it you would have NO knowledge of Jesus and maybe a concept of deity like other mythologies do. Take away scripture and see how self evident Jesus becomes. Christianity is a religion based on a written book not any special knowledge. They claim that their book is inspired by the divine but so far many of their proofs for this seem to reinterpreting things to meet the times, many broad assumptions, and a complete trust of ancient writers. Although their trust of ancient writers is inconsistent as they only apply that trust to the Christian writers while everyone else was just "greedy" or "deceptive" in their writings.
Of course in order for Christianity to be true these other people can't be right. I really get tired of watching Christian's assassinate the character of anyone who isn't in their boat. It is terribly dishonest, completely off base, and not able to be proven. You don't know the intents or those other people and if you base your idea of their intentions simply based on what the Bible tells you what if reality contradicted your beliefs? Would you, like William Lane Craig, throw it all out and bury your head in your beliefs? I don't think you can accept the idea of these people being honest while still believing Christianity. Remember when we talked about truth though? Truth is a concept not an entity and truth does not respect what any book says. If something is true it is true regardless of how loud some "inspired writer" screams.
If people can honestly/without bad intent/willing delusion come to the conclusion God does not exist then the Apostle Paul is wrong. If the Apostle Paul is wrong you lose most of Christianity since most of it is Pauline anyway. I understand that you are going to assassinate my character and others and it is irritating. However I understand that this is the ONLY way for you to keep your faith so in choosing between God and me you will assume I am mistaken. Thankfully I know why I am at where I am. I can know that I was HONEST and the fact that some ancient man screams I wasn't doesn't prove anything. My knowledge of my honesty helps me shoot holes in the Apostle Paul's statements so that I can know he was WRONG. I don't have to prove that to you because I can know that for myself.
Thankfully knowing I am honest doesn't require that you realize that I am.
If God's "justice" is unavoidable than the loving thing for him to do was to never create men in the first place. However God created men to serve/love HIM and he decided it was acceptable for most of men to be created regardless of their fate so HE could get what HE wanted. Can it be selfish to create something just so it will love/worship you? Absolutely, creating something so that it will love me and tell me how wonderful I am is selfish and egotistical.
Many of Christianities pre-science ideas are probably being reinterpreted in light of scientific discoveries. Isn't it interesting that people who were so invested in scripture just missed that supposed "germ theory" reference in Leviticus. It is terribly convenient that when SCIENCE discovers something only THEN does Christianity supposedly reveal that it knew it first. Its terribly convenient that people only seem to realize those things after the fact.
You seem to be really bent on this idea that all other religions save Christianity have this big ulterior motive. You have also repeatedly ignored the ideas that Christianity is built in such a way to allow for just as many "selfish" desires. Again I would ask you if there wasn't punishment for sin would you sin? Although to be honest many things that are dictated as sin I, and other atheists, don't want to do anyway. In fact according to Christian standards we don't do anything too bad. However the idea is that any one thing sends you to the fryer which is why we need God according to Christianity. God is the one who is in control so therefore the only reason things are so nitpicky is HE designed it that way.
People can try whatever philosophical mind games they want but if God is truly all in control then the consequence of sin, the ability for man to sin, and everything else ultimately falls back on him. He has the power, the control, and the foreknowledge supposedly so he also has the responsibility in this case. Suffering, punishment, etc are all results of God's decisions and selfishness in the original creation of mankind.
As far as proving inconsistencies with the Bible goes I don't even need to go there and here is why. All of Christianities miraculous claims are contained only inside of scripture. Even some of its history such as herod's massacres, Israel's massive conquering, the mass exodus of slaves, the Egyptian army at the bottom of the red sea (save the fake chariot wheel they found the ONE fake one), Solomon's reign, and many others. Maybe the evidence was just destroyed etc but that is speculation. Maybe the evidence for Zeus was destroyed too. It is pure useless speculation.
The Bible's formation etc was done by the hands of men. You can say they were inspired but they were still men. More specifically the Bible you enjoy today has a long history with the Catholic church who we all know is completely interested in preserving only what is true. The Old Testament is really not ever going to be proven conclusively. As far as K.A. Kitchens reliability of the Old Testament goes he points out little snippets of things but I don't recall anything mind blowing about Israel.
You are right Christianity is gaining grounds in countries that are controlled, such as China, and countries where superstition and illiteracy is high I.E. Africa. I am not impressed by that especially after going on mission trips myself. We did medical missions where we did studies with people who chances are know very little information and some can't even read. It is not hard to convince someone in that state that the Bible is true especially if they are predisposed to superstitions etc. It is not because they are stupid it is due to information suppression. I believe it was Fredrick Douglass who said “Once you learn to read, you will be forever free.” China is notorious for controlling the flow of information anyway. By the way I think you are going to be hard pressed to prove that China's prosperity is due to religion. It is an economic success enjoyed by all of that business they do etc as far as I can tell anyway.
I am tired of hearing the "Christianity is leaving America so it is going down" idea. I really hope that the ECONOMIC forces that are at work don't crush America. It will also be nice if America bounces back and secularizes while still prospering. It will smack that ridiculous idea that being a Christian nation is what made America so prosperous. A lot of the business, industry, building structures, etc that made America prosperous were not exactly due to "Christianity".
By the way I completely agree with you that the Indian Guru's "miracles" would be easily disproven. The problem is you are telling me that Jesus miracles were real based SOLELY and ENTIRELY on the words of others and a book containing gospels written at least 20 years or so after Jesus supposed death. I never understood how Christian's say their faith is based in Jesus/God when without those other people mentioning it you would have NO knowledge of Jesus and maybe a concept of deity like other mythologies do. Take away scripture and see how self evident Jesus becomes. Christianity is a religion based on a written book not any special knowledge. They claim that their book is inspired by the divine but so far many of their proofs for this seem to reinterpreting things to meet the times, many broad assumptions, and a complete trust of ancient writers. Although their trust of ancient writers is inconsistent as they only apply that trust to the Christian writers while everyone else was just "greedy" or "deceptive" in their writings.
Of course in order for Christianity to be true these other people can't be right. I really get tired of watching Christian's assassinate the character of anyone who isn't in their boat. It is terribly dishonest, completely off base, and not able to be proven. You don't know the intents or those other people and if you base your idea of their intentions simply based on what the Bible tells you what if reality contradicted your beliefs? Would you, like William Lane Craig, throw it all out and bury your head in your beliefs? I don't think you can accept the idea of these people being honest while still believing Christianity. Remember when we talked about truth though? Truth is a concept not an entity and truth does not respect what any book says. If something is true it is true regardless of how loud some "inspired writer" screams.
If people can honestly/without bad intent/willing delusion come to the conclusion God does not exist then the Apostle Paul is wrong. If the Apostle Paul is wrong you lose most of Christianity since most of it is Pauline anyway. I understand that you are going to assassinate my character and others and it is irritating. However I understand that this is the ONLY way for you to keep your faith so in choosing between God and me you will assume I am mistaken. Thankfully I know why I am at where I am. I can know that I was HONEST and the fact that some ancient man screams I wasn't doesn't prove anything. My knowledge of my honesty helps me shoot holes in the Apostle Paul's statements so that I can know he was WRONG. I don't have to prove that to you because I can know that for myself.
Thankfully knowing I am honest doesn't require that you realize that I am.
