RE: I am an orthodox Christian, ask me a question!
August 10, 2009 at 2:27 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2009 at 4:09 pm by Jon Paul.)
(August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm)Ace Wrote: You have made a contradiction where you once mentioned that god is part of the universe
I have never said that. My argument specifically arrives at the conclusion that God is not part of the universe, he wholly transcends it. He is not made of spaghetti, and he is not flying in space through time like FSM.
spatiotemporal universe to begin with.
(August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm)Ace Wrote: Now being in the realm of non-material means it cannot be proven nor dis proven.It certainly does not. Being material or non-material is not a question of "realm". Space and time are not matter, yet they can be proven to exist. Our realm is not "matter". Matter is that which objects within our real are composed of. Our realm is the spatiotemporal universe, which contains matter. Immateriality is certainly real, for space and vacuum is in itself void of matter, but still exists and contains energy. Vacuum, though it is void of matter, contains what we call vacuum energy, which is not matter. This has been experimentally proven per the Caisimir effect. That means that, even that which is void of matter is not void of energy, it is itself energy, and therefore energy exists independently from matter.
(August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm)Ace Wrote: So you use the material world as some footprint that's not really there to use as explanations for your god. Now likely hood is as important as anything else. It's because we cannot prove that it's impossible to exist within the non-material realm we therefor class it due to it's lack of supporting evidence that it is classed as very improbable.You have completely misunderstood the relationship between matter, space and time, and energy and the concept of probability. Probability relates to the epistemic realm, not the ontologic. As Dawkins says, in Climbing Mount Improbable, improbability does not preclude actuality (as Arcanus pointed out). My claim of God is ontologically verifiable, and has nothing even to do with probability, as probability is the likelihood from a limited knowledge of the totality of the universe, of a thing to take place and become actual within the already-existing universe. Not the likelihood of a thing to be actual, which was actual before, is actual now, and always will be actual in all of temporality (like, the proposition that the spatiotemporal universe exists, or the proposition that God exists).
(August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm)Ace Wrote: Wrong again. Material is energyPrecisely. Matter presupposes energy. Energy does not presuppose matter.
(August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm)Ace Wrote: The laws are simple and easy to understand. Either you are made of nothing and therefor governed by nothing and therefor cannot possibly exist within the world of matter/energy and laws. I don't say it cannot exist but cannot exist in the material world that is governed by the laws of nature."Nothing" and "immaterial" are far from the same. Both because space and time are not "nothing", and not matter, but still exist. And also because energy exists independently of matter, in the void of the universe, in which we are only now discovering things such as dark energy, gravitational fields and other entities affecting our experimental results (the Casimir effect and quantum fluctuations), but we have known for long that vacuum (voidness of matter) contains energy. In that context, indeed matter is only an expression of energy which is equivalent to it's energy content (E=mc2). Matter is only potential energy which is temporarily enclosed, as opposed to the free kinetic energy of the motion of such objects of matter. In a nuclear bomb you see the potential energy of matter be freed/converted into kinetic energy.
(August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm)Ace Wrote: If god is non-material he is non-energy and non-energy cannot effect energy.Again, that does not follow, since vacuum which is void of matter is not void of energy. You demonstrate your tremendous ignorance of physics, and the nature of energy.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton