(August 11, 2009 at 6:18 pm)Jon Paul Wrote: I agree that truth exists independently of whether we believe it or not, which has been my point all along.
But you are claiming it now,
I of course believe the universe exists objectively outside my beliefs. My point is the fact that we have to detect that subjectively does not make it not real, if it's real it's real, if it's not it's not. We don't have to absolutely know it exists.
Quote: My question to you is, then, how that is the case given atheism. For instance, in which sense does the law of contradiction exist in the physical universe independently of whether a mind has conceived of it and how do you demonstrate this to be the case without appealing to a minds conceptual realisation of it?
We don't have to absoutely demonstrate or know that the universe exists objectiively. Actually, it's not just that we don't have to - we can't! As subjective minds we can't absolutely know or absolutely demonstrate. Because for all we know - we could still be wrong.
From my own personal experience, I have grown up realizing - like others - that life is logical and things make sense. I have my own evidence of logic and rationality in the universe....
It's not only that I don't have to know beyond my own subjectiveity - I can't! By definition! I can't know beyond my own subjective capabilites of knowing....
If objective truth exists out there and I believe in it, I can only do this through my own subjective capabilites - it's the only known way.
You can't just start by choosing or not choosing to believe in a 'objective mind' first - well not rationally anyway -: Evidence indeed must come first, because your belief(s) in logic/illogic, rationality/irrationality, objective truth/subjective truth is/are all based on evidence or lack thereof!
You can't know beyond your own subjectivity, and if you are unsatisfied with that, tough. Unless you can somehow magically demonstrate otherwise to me.
EvF
