RE: I am an orthodox Christian, ask me a question!
August 13, 2009 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2009 at 4:48 pm by Jon Paul.)
(August 13, 2009 at 4:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote: No, as an atheist (and scientist), I don't pre-suppose anything other than "science is the best way to learn things about the universe".I was not speaking about you or ALL atheists, as some atheists are more agnostic than others, but about the exact text I quoted in question, which did presuppose that God does not exist (which is strong atheism), it specifically stated "The universe can work just fine without a transcendal 'God'.", which is the same saying that God is not necessary for the universe' existence, which is the same as the presupposition that God does not exist [as the hypothesis of God is that God is a necessary being, and if he is not, then God does not exist].
(August 13, 2009 at 4:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I look at the evidence and do not find any pointing towards a God. My disbelief in God is not a pre-supposition, but more of a conclusion based on the lack of evidence for such a position.So let's call it a post-supposition after seemingly not finding evidence; then when you bring that post-supposition into an argument with a theist (me) who has the post-supposition that there is evidence, it becomes a presupposition through which the theistic evidence and post-suppositions are viewed with.
EvF Wrote:*God is not just there "from the beginning". That is not the transcendent God, anyway; he is wholly transcendent to temporal dimension, and therefore not limited by it or by temporal designations.
Besides, minds are complex, especially if they're 'there from the beginning'.
EvF Wrote:*Human minds are complex, because it is part of the universe that it is composite, that it can contain multiplicities and complex entities. But that does not mean the kind of mind that we speak of when we speak of God is actually complex. After all, God is not a mind in the human sense, but in the sense of having an intellectual nature.
It's not simple for a mind to be there right form the start, you need an explanation for something like that. And for a mind to devise and create a universe right from the beginning with no explanation for itself whatsover - is very complex indeed!!
What we actually mean with Gods absolute simplicity can be clearly understood by a single consideration. Gods absolute simplicity means that all his attributes are ultimately equal to the same fact of his being, meaning that his ontology is entirely noncomposite and singular, and composition is the source of the complexity in the universe. God, being noncomposite, is then totally noncomplex, and absolutely simple.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton