RE: I am an orthodox Christian, ask me a question!
August 16, 2009 at 11:55 am
(This post was last modified: August 16, 2009 at 1:38 pm by Jon Paul.)
(August 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm)omjag86 Wrote: In one breath you claim God is "outside" you, and something yuou try to be like.I have never claimed God is "the universe".
In the next breath you claim God is the Universe-so do you live "outside" the Universe.
(August 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm)omjag86 Wrote: I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked of mythology and the parables because that is exactly what the bible is, a storybook of parables and mythologies that don't know if God is outside of you "John 3:16"God is in all things. There is not a thing that would exist without Gods presence in it, but there is not a thing or a totality of created things which equals to God, either, because each one of them is itself contingent on God. There is no contradiction there. In fact, if you understand the doctrine of actus purus, you would understand this much more, because God is the actualising principle in all things, but yet those things are not actus purus, but to the contrary, impure actuality which depends on actus purus (God). This means that God is transcendent, not only to, but also in in all things. So there is an ontological differentiation between God and the universe, because the universe doesn't self-subsist (actus purus) but subsists off actus purus.
or inside of you "John 17:21"
is it e pluribus unum or not?
are we of the one, or seperate from one?
(August 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm)omjag86 Wrote: You also know that the earliest writings of the New Testament took place well over 100 years after the death of JesusI certainly don't. The first writings (that we still have at hand) originate within 15-30 years of his death in the early Church, of the earliest epistles and gospels, and thus within the lifetime of his disciples and apostles. The many scholars who believe in Q will push it back even earlier. Even aside from scripture, oral tradition has been sufficient for many cultures, even today (Muslims) to preserve larger quantities of teachings and tradition than even that which is recorded in the NT, such that the earliest writings we have at hand (not even the earliest ones, according to most scholars who believe in the primordial Q document(s)) only represent a written record of what corresponds to a quantity that in many other cultures has been preserved purely by oral tradition for thousands of years. But that is not what happened in the Christian Church, in which it was written down very early. On the other hand, the gnostic gospels are written 100-250 years after Jesus death, and use the earlier sources, some of which we now don't have at hand (according to many scholars) which thus put the boundary of written record of Jesus even earlier back (perhaps to Q) than 15-30 years after his death, but in the gnostic gospels, with patterns of theological additions and corruptions into the gnostic theology which can be clearly distinguished from the earlier sources they use which we do have, which leads me to think that what you said is much closer to true in the case of the gnostic writings.
(August 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm)omjag86 Wrote: [Jesus] who left NO writings of any kind behind.That's right. Jesus didn't come to write a book; He came to establish a Church.
(August 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm)omjag86 Wrote: That there is no recorded history of Jesus outside your admitted mythological book of parablesAgain, you take the most pessimistic view because of your pathos. I can do nothing to change that.
The New Testament is historical narrative, even with it's theological content. As to recorded history of Jesus outside the New Testament, it certainly exists. I think to deny that the New Testament, itself historical narrative, many parts are which are written close to his life, at least attests to his historical existence is special pleading because any other ancient scriptures written so close to an individuals life, even with theology in it, will be generally used for historical vericity.
But historical reference exists also outside of it. Both in the undisputed reference of Josephus (the other is disputed), and also in other writers like Thallos, Pliny, Suetonius, Mara Bar Serapion, Lucian of Samosata, Celsus, Tacitus and plenty of other Roman historians. In fact, it has been noted that there are more references to Jesus closer to his lifetime, than to the Roman emperor of his lifetime (Tiberius), so that to dispute Jesus existence equals to special pleading, and now double special pleading after discounting both the NT and the references outside of it. A review of the historical reliability of the NT, and compilation of evidence of the historical Jesus outside the NT, of the historical references and facts can be found accesibly in books like The Historical Reliability of the Gospels by L. Bloomberg and Jesus Outside the New Testament: Studying Ancient Evidence by Van Voorst.
(August 16, 2009 at 11:25 am)Darwinian Wrote: Are you happy?Happy in some things, and with some things, not so happy with others. Then again, happiness in itself isn't the highest goal of life (for me), but rather the foundation for that happiness is important. It could make someone happy to torture others (a sadist of sorts), but that doesn't make that happiness something I believe he should pursue.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton