(April 3, 2012 at 12:20 am)Godschild Wrote: The disciples all 12 died horrible deaths, for what, a lie, by no means. Some of the twelve would have given up the lie before death, so the twelve must have know the truth of the resurrection. HE IS RISEN.
Bear in mind, it is not just the Apostles whom are supposed to have seen Jesus risen. 1 Corinthians 15:6 claims 500 saw the rising Jesus, Matthew 28:17 points out the doubt many had (how you can doubt a shining rising Jesus is somewhat of a mystery).
By the time Peter was addressing the believersn Acts 1:15 only 120 were left.
So out of 500, almost 75% of those who "saw" Jesus rising, didn't believe it was any such thing, and not proof of his resurrection.
A small percentage who believes that what they saw was in fact the rising of Jesus which evidently wasn't that convincing is hardly solid testimony.
In order for your argument to carry any weight, each disciple had to die in a manner that allowed them to escape death by claiming it was all just a big "hoax".
Being a believer and dying, does not mean you died for a lie.
Well, certainly not Peter. Nero blamed the christians for the burning of Rome and their personal beliefs made no difference to their deaths. Recanting the basis of the belief, in the resurrection isn't likely to save them from the wrath of Nero, he was killing them in revenge.
So how did Peter die for his beliefs? He didn't.
Now the disciples were religious leaders of the Christian movement. During the persecution of the Christians, "would not die for a lie" simply ignores the fact that they would be targeted for death as leaders of a rebellious belief system. I very much doubt a roman legionnaire sent to arrest them would have turned away because they recanted, it would be meaningless. Orders are orders, and they are marked for death.
For this argument "they would not die for a lie" to work, you need to show, that the resurrection of Jesus was a sufficiently impressive event to convince. It wasn't, only the diehards apparently were, which makes Christianity nothing more than a cult of gullibility gotten out of control.
Secondly, you need to show how each apostle died. But we have no facts here, no history, not even biblical support.
The argument is a smokescreen, pretending to knowledge you cannot possess about the facts of the situation.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
