(May 12, 2012 at 7:47 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I guess busting up drug gangs is what you understand from self-sacrifice.
But self-sacrifice for whom?
For your"self", apparently.
(May 12, 2012 at 7:47 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: How do you define "work actively".
I've forfeited my life for my ideals. I will give my life if I have to, in order for them to be realized. Is this so hard to comprehend?
My ideals are of political nature. Hermits, dervishes and monks, forfeit their lives to their particular religion, God or tenets. This is called devotion. If this devotion requires them to lay down their lives in an instant, they do so. But most generally abstain from worldly needs as much as they can. Things that define life. For example, women, food, wine, property and etc. Abstaining from these would mean that you did have forfeited your life already. You live only for your God.
I guess this shouldn't be so hard to understand.
But they are still alive, aren't they? Which means they haven't completely forfeited their lives.
(May 12, 2012 at 7:47 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: But you just took their meaning away by telling them to go kill themselves.
Obviously they still live, and they live for their God and religion. Things that have higher meanings for them.
No, I pointed out the contradiction in their philosophy. The only way for them to have meaning is by destroying the source of all meaning. This contradiction comes from their choice of attributing higher meaning to things that are not real. The only way they can "live" for their god is by dying for it.
(May 12, 2012 at 7:47 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, you call it imaginary, they call your life imaginary. Buddhism states that whatever you do in this life is merely illusionary. Islam states that it's merely a test. Both come to the conclusion that at the end, whatever experiences you had on this world are moot, if they are not directed towards God, or Nirvana.
They look at you, and say, "what a fool indeed". How long can you keep it up? When will you be ever satisfied? What real meaning and worth do you find in this life?
I myself find worth and meaning in that I live for my people and nation.
It still is a higher ideal beyond my selfish needs. It still is an ideal beyond my ego.
Even after I die, my nation will live. Whatever contributions I have done for it will live with it.
My ideals do not require me to give up worldly needs, but they do not require me to lose myself within them. Worldly needs are merely tools for me in order to serve my people a bit better. Money can contribute to a lot of things. Marriage and having children secure the next generation.
On the other hand, religiously motivated hermits do not aim for a worldly goal. They do not aim to aid a nation or any nation. They aim to aid any individuals they come across as best as they could, at least our dervish orders do, but from their words, "Love the people due to your love of God." principle requires them to do so.
But this too, is merely a tool on the way to their goal. Denouncing selfishness, helping the people who need help, for the sake of God.
Thank you for putting forward your corrupt philosophy so succinctly. That is not a philosophy of a free and rational man. That is a philosophy that shows the relation between slaves and their masters. From the beginning, men have wanted to control other men. When it cannot be done by force, it is done by intelligent sounding false philosobabble. Once you convince a man that his life is worth nothing unless it is a used for a purpose other than his own, you have just found yourself a willing slave who'd lay down his life for your purpose. And since meeting anyone with opposite ideas would simply reveal to this man that his entire philosophy is a mistake, he'll go out of his way to find you even more willing slaves. It doesn't matter which and whose purpose is used to replace what could have been yours, whether it is god's or country's or the poors', as long as it is not your own.
(May 12, 2012 at 7:47 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I thought you were an individualist. As you cannot ever hope to best his archivements in the areas of poetry and literature, neither his will in archiving a particular goal, you call him mad and stupid. You on the other hand possess the intelligence of an animal, perhaps, even if your IQ is over 200, you still are like an animal. For you lack the appreciation that is needed to understand how and why he was capable of enduring any hardships, nor his devotion to his art and religion.
Why would you think that I cannot best his "achievements", which seem to be meager. Most of the greatest and influential artists known have been individualists, those who value their view, their judgment and their art above all others. The capacity to endure extreme hardships does not come without having an indomitable ego that would not succumb to anyone else. And without such an ego, there is no suffering because then their wouldn't be anything meaningful to take away.
