(May 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm)NoMoreFaith Wrote: As in, anything they do is automatically deemed as just.. even if its genocide, murder etc etc..No? They are incapable of evil in that they only desire to love.
Heaven must be very empty, and ironically free from most of the Popes and Saints.
I don't know about most of the Popes, but anyone who is declared a Saint is considered to be in Heaven. This does not mean that they were perfect in their lifetime--perhaps some Saints did need to spend time in Purgatory as well. The absolutely lovely St. Bernadette Soubroius actually fully expected Purgatory herself:
"They think I'm a saint... When I'm dead, they'll come and touch holy pictures and rosaries to me, and all the while I'll be getting broiled on a grill in purgatory. At least promise me you'll pray a lot for the repose of my soul."
But the title of "Saint" itself is to designate them as dwelling in Heaven. There are Saint Popes but quite a few Popes who were never declared as such, who are remembered as being quite wicked.
Quote:Its blase to say that only perfect people go to heaven, therefore no sin is committed. Humans are not black and white, perfect or completely evil. Its meaningless as a paragraph. If we discuss, that this perfection is attained through true repentence then we must also accept that those in heaven are incapable of change, which ergo, limits and perhaps annihilates free will. Free Will by its very nature requires the ability to change, otherwise actions are completely determined.The goal of Christianity is to be perfect as God is perfect. With God's grace, yes it is possible to be perfect, again, according to most of Christianity. And if you think that choosing perfection means you have no "free will" then we don't have "free will" even now. I would never hurt my brother for example, because I love him too much. I don't personally think this means that my own free will was compromised, though I know some people can come up with some pretty interesting definitions for what they think real "free will" is.
Quote:Since part of the "reasons to go to hell" involve non-belief, one would consider that one would give repentence a pretty good go.Non-belief in God does not make you completely evil. It doesn't even send you to Hell necessarily, since all sin/evil requires knowledge, consent, and grave matter. "Non-belief in God" itself can qualify as a grave matter--but there are many issues which can compromise knowledge+consent which lessen culpability. Anyone who still strives to know God, and who loves as completely as possible, can one day find God. But any evil act, even one, is incompatible with God, who is love. To die in that state means you remain out of his grace forever--and there's no repentance if you are permanently alienated from all goodness and all love.
Unless you are basically saying, that non-belief in God, means you are completely evil in every aspect, which is non-compatible with .. the real world.
This is a peculiarly black and white way to think of things, all the evil you can eat, as long as you follow up feeling genuine remorse, and you're "PERFECT" for eternity.
A person who dedicates their life to making life good for their fellow man, doesn't believe in God. Sent to hell with no opportunity for remorse for that simple lack of belief.
Also no, its not "all the evil you can eat, as long as you follow up feeling genuine remorse". Remorse alone doesn't erase sin or the temporal effects of sin--that comes from Purgatory. Remorse for your sins can make the difference between Purgatory or Hell though.
Quote:Well, you are catholic, so inventing new worlds is hardly new, except when you have to say "whoops, never existed anyway". What happened to Limbo anyway?Limbo is where its always been. Limbo is now, and always has been, an "acceptable belief", something which is not canonical but still can be believed in if you choose. The Pope simply re-stated what the Catholic Church's position on Limbo, and the media had a field day talking about "the Pope closing Limbo". The media is terrible when it comes to talking about Catholic issues (or any issue which requires them to do more than 10 minutes of homework).
Quote:Basically, your concept of heaven becomes this torturous existence, where you do not CONFORM to God's standards, and therefore are sent to purgatory until your freewill is crushed (remember, perfection is incompatible with free will).I don't think there is anything tortuous about "conforming to God's standards". I long to serve God and my fellow man, and to love God and others completely, giving everything of myself. There is nothing that I want more.
I freely choose perfection and I freely choose to strive to be perfect. I have no idea if I will even make it to purgatory, but I can certainly hope. Purgatory is merely a process in which people are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin and evil, and yes, I would love to be cleaned of the effects of sin. It is painful and trying but much better that than remaining in evil for all eternity.
Quote:Thankfully, its a nasty piece of thinking, which is all the more astounding that it is plucked from the air, with hardly reference in the bible itself.Not everything is in the Bible. That being said, Purgatory is referenced in 2 Maccabees 12, Matthew 5, Matthew 12, and Revelation 21.
You'd think something like that would be worth mentioning.....
Clearly 12th century catholics decided the bible hadn't plagiarised enough from Zoroastrianism and others.
"It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."--2 Machabees 12,46. Mentions the dead being "loosed from sin". Those who split off from the Church (Protestants) ended up removing this book from their canon altogether.
"Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing."--Matthew 5,26. Mentions "repayment" for sins after "judgement"
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."--Matthew 12, 32. Mentions sins being forgiven in the "world to come": blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the exception to the rule.
It is mentioned in the earliest of Church Traditions (and even before, to Jewish traditions), and is certainly not "plucked from the air" or a product of the middle ages. The word Purgatory is from the Middle Ages, but the process of being cleansed from sin can be called whatever you like.
Of course this is very Catholic, so I am sure some of the other posters would disagree. If I misunderstood any of your questions or was unclear, please excuse me. I am a bit sick atm.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.