Gay Marriage: Why the christians need to STFU about it

[Aiza]

Sure they might not have had same sex marriage in their society, but it was not for reasons of "preserving the sanctity of marriage" like you're trying to claim. Same sex marriage didn't exist in their society because marriage to Greek men was simply a necessary institution to where they had the convenience of their wives to run their home, bear and raise their children while they, the men, ran the society and oftentimes continued getting male booty (pun intended) on the side.

That was my point, LarissaAnn. If "doesn't believe in gay marriage" means you are persecuting gay people, than the Greeks persecuted homosexuals in spite of having, by any measure, a very gay friendly society. Get it?

The problem with brainwashed religious people is just that..brainwashed from birth and taught NOT to question the scriptures/bible. I too was brought up a Christian then as an adult I read the scriptures over and over and came to my own conclusion that they are a load of fairy stories/Greek mythology, made up to control the peasants, so that the rich ones could get richer. The same happens today.
I would wager that all the Christians that come on here, have, never, ever questioned the scriptures nor looked deeply into the writings. There are so many contradictions its laughable and how any sane grown up can believe it is beyond belief.

Tell me, what in Christian Scripture allows for rich people to "get richer"?

And yes, I have looked very deeply into the writings of Scripture, and have questioned them, as have many many Christians dating all the way back to the Church Fathers. The vast majority of the "contradictions" aren't when you put them into context (either historical, literary or within context of Christian Tradition), and those that do contradict don't contradict in matters of faith or morals which is what Christians use Scripture for.

You essentially asy that catholicism and islam do not see women as inferior but then you state that there are stricter requirements on women [implying that women NEED to be policed more tightly, implying weaker wills, implying inferiority], and that women are incapable of receiving holy orders but that men are...implying a superiority of men over women in that realm, as well [being allowed to do something is, has, ever has been and ever will be the mark of superiority], and that women were, until only recently, forced to veil their heads in church, were not allowed on the altar, and no ministries until the age of Enlightenment.

You don't come off as harsh at all Creed.

No the stricter requirements were in terms of their cloister, and I think its to prevent rape and such. Men's cloisters have "neutral territory" where women can enter, but women's cloisters don't have said neutral territory. And honestly I have no idea if this rule is still in effect. And the fact that women cannot receive Holy Orders (not even that they are disallowed, but that it is considered impossible) is because it allows one to act in persona Christi. Is beer or grape juice "inferior" to wine since wine can be used in the Eucharist? While it is not sacramental, women can become consecrated virgins and men cannot.

And you describe the Church as "kicking and screaming" and "being dragged by the ideas of humanist secularists" but I don't see that at all. All the changes I described came from within. Apostolic women religious first came about with Pope Leo X a hundred years before the Enlightenment (?), though I suppose indirectly Enlightenment values may have increased their number as many women in Catholic dominated nations were forced out of their cloister and needed to find some work to support themselves. Women veiling their heads only was first allowed in 1917, it was removed in 1983 with a new Code of Canon law, though I have toyed with the idea of buying myself a veil to wear voluntarily. Altar girls came about specifically from an letter from Pope John Paul II, which permits them but expressly states that they do not have the "right" to serve the altar (no one does). While the changes probably are made with the times, I don't get "secular" out of any of it, nor do I get "kicking and screaming". If anything post-Vatican II parishes were too eager to institute changes: tearing out the altar rails (or kneelers altogether), turning the altar around, moving the tabernacle (ugh). If it were "kicking and screaming" altar girls would be an exception, not the rule in most parishes. My own parish is one of the very few which still has male-only servers.

Also while St. Augustine of Hippo is a great man, he is not infallible, nor are his words equivalent to Church doctrine. If you go back far enough, any person is quite misogynist. We could look even at some "anti-theist" contemporaries and find plenty of distaste for women. Women and men have always been under a single law within the Catholic church, and always been considered spiritually equal: "there is no male or female in Christ Jesus" as it were.

Also the Catholic Church never "supported the Nazis", let alone gleefully.

I do need to be a Catholic. I am a Catholic.