Science + Creation

[The Grand Nudger]

You are seriously complaining that different Church Fathers thought different things, while leaving the Faithful all the freedom to believe in whatever they like? The exact same thing is true today. Catholics can be single instant Creationists, they can be 7 day Creationists, they can believe in evolution. This has always been true. This example is particularly ridiculous because nothing here was defined, nothing here was changed, nothing here was a swap of "party lines". We went from "no official position because its irrelevant" to "no official position because its irrelevant".

Agreed, your creation superstitions are irrelevant. Of course, it's a bit disingenuous to state that they are irrelevant -to catholicism-, isn't it? Now, why on earth would I complain that a bunch of human beings change their minds over time? I'm not, you are again attempting misdirection. Case in point, I'm not even complaining, just calling you on some particularly blatant bullshit.

What "rulings"? Popes are infallible in matters of Faith+morals when speaking in their office as a Pope. Give me a single example of this "ruling" being overturned.

You've already been given an example, and I'm not interested in pandering to your feigned ignorance.

Small t tradition are just practices and expressions. The exact same beliefs, you just change what color the altar cloths are. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual doctrine, so this whole conversation just betrays your ignorance more than anything.

"We don't change stuff except when we do, except that we don't, and if we did it doesn't matter because it;s no big deal"

No Rhythm, not so"I" claim. So every single bit of research we have claims. Please, find me any evidence of an early manuscript without this "Petrine passage" and then I will continue to humor you. Until then, no.

You have research? Thusfar I've only seen you reference the articles of your faith, still waiting on that opus. You need the Petrine passage (and the entirety of the narrative as well) to be genuine, I don't. It's your baby, make it so.

And while I am at it, this goes for all the stuff about the Church "changing its mind" as well. I don't want to do your homework for you. Give me a concrete example or I won't even pretend to humor you. This is just goofy and you come across as more ignorant by the post.

You've been given multiple examples in multiple threads, again, I'm not interested.

I would link you to the Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum (phew!), which is pretty much the official list of all Catholic dogmas within a single list, but since the free English translation of the site is down, I can link you to some Catechisms instead which might give you an idea, albeit incomplete, of Catholic doctrine which we might use as a starting point for your alleged "changes" (especially Trent + the CCC since those come officially from the Church:

Catechetical Instructions of Thomas Aquinas (13th Century): http://www.basilica.org/pages/ebooks/St....ctions.pdf
Catechism of Trent (1566): http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...tindex.htm
Vaux's Catechism (1583): http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/vaux.htm
Douay Catechism (1649): http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/DouayCat.htm
Baltimore Catechism (1886): http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...bindex.htm
Catechism of St. Pius X (1908): http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/ma...pindex.htm
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1997): http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

These all sprang forth from the rock of peter did they? Or where they added, revised, and is this all that there has ever been or are we missing a few? Uh-huh.... Look, throw your chips in with whatever church you like, structure your beliefs to be in accord with whatever dogma feels comfortable to you. Who cares if I think the beliefs are ridivulous? Nobody. Thing is, you don't have to put forward such blatantly dishonest arguments to defend your faith, and you do your faith no great service in doing so (nor does engaging in this sort of bull-shittery actually defend your faith at all....nor does it require defense). The church's history is what it is. The church has changed over time, catholic beliefs have changed over time. Sometimes Popes don't agree with their predecessors, there was once no such thing as a pope. The church has actively participated in terrible things, and they've hand their hand in a fair share of good as well. This is to be expected, it is a group of human beings, there is no pedestal in reality, only the one you have afforded them through faith.

"We believe that the popes office and authority are grounded in the church established by christ as stated in the Petrine passage." That's fine, but it's a belief, that's not how or when (or why) the office was established.
"We believe that the church has final authoritative say on certain matters" That's fine, but stop pretending that it's "authoritative" rulings haven't been monkeyed with, because they have, and as you have mentioned, it has been done in the open.

The catholic church does not need you weaseling through conversations, it really doesn't