Facing the Morally Bad Future

[gomtuu77]

I'm not surprised. The quicker you can justify the No True Scotsman fallacy, the safer one feels about one's faith. That's how I felt every time I heard of well known people leaving the faith. Such people included Bart Ehrman.

On the contrary, I quite wish people would leave and simply be more honest, but that's not the way it generally works. And as far as I know, there is no fallacy in play, as my wondering about whether this person was ever a Christian would have ZERO bearing upon whether they were indeed a Christian. The only thing going on is an assessment on my part as to whether there is sufficient reason for me to affirm their prior claim to be a Christian. It has no genuine bearing on the actual state of their soul, as I don't know what's in their heart. In short, I'm not declaring the person a non-Christian in the sense of knowledge (i.e. justified true belief).

[quote]Would a genuine believer do these things(?):

Being a member of the worship team at church, being a member of a Christian-only band with aspirations to make it big, missionary work, dreams to start a family that lives for God, bible study group member, 'life group' member... every last detail about me relies on the Bible.

Sure, it's quite possible. But that's the point I was making. Both believers and unbelievers do these kinds of things. There are people in all walks of the Church's life that aren't genuine believers, but none of us know for sure who they are...only that they are.

There is so much you can do. Take Drich as an example. He has stated that he's here to clear up any misconceptions about Christianity. That would go a long way to turn someone around and make it easier for them to have faith again.

True, God can use myself or others to help clear the intellectural subterfuge out of his way, but I've never argued against that. What I'm saying is that if someone's will doesn't allow for their faith, then they will never have it. Defeating the sinful will of mankind is a job that only God can do.

I know this is the last thing you want to hear, but I don't have an agenda. My belief in God would be a choice not based on what I want to be true. I'm a free thinker. Show me why scripture is reliable and I'll have no choice but to accept that as truth. This is my only intention in life; to get a hold of what's true.

No, I love to hear that, and I certainly hope it is true, but this is what a lot of people say. More often than not, in my experience, its simply untrue. However, that doesn't stop people from professing it. It's much easier to reject God in the context of maintaing the pretense that one is a "free thinker" and truly following the evidence wherever it leads. I certainly hope that it's a genuine reality for you, and I congratulate you for having that as a value.

Again, I know you don't want to hear this, but I was only after the truth when I began searching for answers to questions that church wasn't providing.

Why wouldn't I want to hear this? I'm sympathetic to the idea that the Church wasn't providing answers. This is pretty typical, unfortunately.

And yes, you're right, we don't like the truth, but that cuts both ways doesn't it? Do you think I converted overnight after finding an 'excuse' to 'finally' have to stop believing? I was training myself up to be an apologist and I was defending the faith across all frontiers. I wasn't going to give up on the truth at all because it was my life, it IS my life (hence this thread).

I doubt you had an overnight conversion, though anything is possible. Typically its a long-term process, at least in my limited experience. How were you training yourself to be an apologist...and why? If you found someone like Bart Ehrman convincing for example, that would be my first major clue that a problem existed. He's been exposed by James R. White, Michael Kruger, and others but it's pretty much the best kept secret in the world. I would recommend listening to the April 10, 2011 Stand to Reason broadcast with Kruger as a beginning, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to read Heresy of Orthodoxy and things like Reinventing Jesus.

Does it seem like someone in my position has done that? I had everything to lose by doing research and knowing for myself what's true. God was my source of life.

Honestly, I have no idea what you've done. There are several possibilities that present themselves readily. One is that you have one or more very significant misunderstandings that have deeply affected your ability to affirmatively believe in God and therefore place your trust in the pardon that's been offered through Christ's sacrifice. Others include the idea that for reasons of upbrining, psychology, or some other unnamed tether; you've always thought of yourself as a Christian and/or even romanticized such a notion. I've seen people spend multiple decades in Church doing what they believed whas genuine Christian service before something exposed them to the truth...whatever that may be. It may have exposed them to the game they were playing or some other such construct that helped them continue in a seemingly honest charade for so long. I don't know, but whatever the case, the structure itself was rotten to the core and they couldn't go on. There are hardcore atheists who will still cry at having to "give up Jesus" because He made them so happy. I'm sure they appeared and even felt themselves like genuine believers. But a genuine believer is one that perseveres. Those who do not, do not belong to God. The heart can not long accept that which the mind rejects and the mind can not long accept that which the heart rejects. Whether mental or heart-felt, human beings do not want to be in subjection to God.