gomtuu77 Wrote:On the contrary, I quite wish people would leave and simply be more honest, but that's not the way it generally works. And as far as I know, there is no fallacy in play, as my wondering about whether this person was ever a Christian would have ZERO bearing upon whether they were indeed a Christian. The only thing going on is an assessment on my part as to whether there is sufficient reason for me to affirm their prior claim to be a Christian. It has no genuine bearing on the actual state of their soul, as I don't know what's in their heart. In short, I'm not declaring the person a non-Christian in the sense of knowledge (i.e. justified true belief).
Well, considering I'm the one who knows best what I believe, I'm telling you I was a reborn Pentecostal Christian equipped with the Holy Spirit. I can't describe to you in words how sincerely I believed, unless you knew me in real life.
Quote:Sure, it's quite possible. But that's the point I was making. Both believers and unbelievers do these kinds of things. There are people in all walks of the Church's life that aren't genuine believers, but none of us know for sure who they are...only that they are.
Agreed, and I'm telling you I sincerely believed.
Quote:True, God can use myself or others to help clear the intellectural subterfuge out of his way, but I've never argued against that. What I'm saying is that if someone's will doesn't allow for their faith, then they will never have it. Defeating the sinful will of mankind is a job that only God can do.
Theologically, I agree.
Quote:No, I love to hear that, and I certainly hope it is true, but this is what a lot of people say. More often than not, in my experience, its simply untrue. However, that doesn't stop people from professing it. It's much easier to reject God in the context of maintaing the pretense that one is a "free thinker" and truly following the evidence wherever it leads. I certainly hope that it's a genuine reality for you, and I congratulate you for having that as a value.
I still feel like you're trying to push me into the box of 'fake Christians'. That's fine, I can't really express through this medium how sincerely I believed, but I'll leave you with this about me: I'm a broke university student. Last year I saved up for ~4 months all my pennies so I could go on that missions trip I mentioned (in the list). I was broke for those 4 months. Didn't have money for fuel, lunch or social activities in general.
Quote:How were you training yourself to be an apologist...and why?
I wanted to do what Drich does. Not convince people to believe, because as you sort of said, that's between them and God. They have to take that last leap of faith. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions they had so that the path to God would be clear. How I was preparing myself? Well funny you ask. It's partly my preparation/research that was giving me not-so-good apologetic material. You see, for anyone to believe they need to understand what the NT is. They are supposedly accurate historical documents, some written by eyewitnesses. Well, that's exactly the sort of proof I needed to be able to show people that this is the way and the truth. Turns out that my 'ideal' view of the NT was only backed up by hearsay from my church. 100% baseless assertions on what they wish was the case, but not supported by a critical view of history.
Quote:If you found someone like Bart Ehrman convincing for example, that would be my first major clue that a problem existed. He's been exposed by James R. White, Michael Kruger, and others but it's pretty much the best kept secret in the world. I would recommend listening to the April 10, 2011 Stand to Reason broadcast with Kruger as a beginning, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to read Heresy of Orthodoxy and things like Reinventing Jesus.
Thank you. I'll look into that.
Quote:Honestly, I have no idea what you've done. There are several possibilities that present themselves readily. One is that you have one or more very significant misunderstandings that have deeply affected your ability to affirmatively believe in God and therefore place your trust in the pardon that's been offered through Christ's sacrifice.
Yeah I'm willing to accept this is a possibility. With that in mind, let's discuss a bit of history.
Quote:Others include the idea that for reasons of upbrining, psychology, or some other unnamed tether; you've always thought of yourself as a Christian and/or even romanticized such a notion. I've seen people spend multiple decades in Church doing what they believed whas genuine Christian service before something exposed them to the truth...whatever that may be. It may have exposed them to the game they were playing or some other such construct that helped them continue in a seemingly honest charade for so long. I don't know, but whatever the case, the structure itself was rotten to the core and they couldn't go on. There are hardcore atheists who will still cry at having to "give up Jesus" because He made them so happy. I'm sure they appeared and even felt themselves like genuine believers. But a genuine believer is one that perseveres. Those who do not, do not belong to God. The heart can not long accept that which the mind rejects and the mind can not long accept that which the heart rejects. Whether mental or heart-felt, human beings do not want to be in subjection to God.
None of this applies to me. I wasn't some sort of double-identity Christian that was a Christian by day and an unclean filthy sinner by night, nor did I have some upbringing that impacted me negatively. My parents are both non-practising Catholics that brought me up as a Catholic. I'm very grateful for the family that I have.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
