Facing the Morally Bad Future

[gomtuu77]

I agree what you say about the Pentecostal church. But see, once again I feel like you're jumping the gun in the hopes of closing me off and leaving me no room in which to show you I was a genuine Christian. Like I've said, you don't know me. I noticed further down you mention tongues. Well I bet you didn't know this about me: I never spoke in tongues. My belief was centred around the Word and a deep understanding of theology, not party tricks like tongues and fainting when the pastor touched your forehead. But, this is actually not my battle. The 'denomination complex' is not my mess to deal with. All you need to know, as much as you wish it was like this, my faith wasn't based on emotions, physical party tricks, a social life, belonging, alterior motives or anything you want to throw at me. I simply wanted to live like Christ and serve but the most noble purpose.

Okay, the first thing that needs to be understood is that, as I have repeatedly said, I don’t know your situation and can’t come to specific judgments about what is true for false within your life or the story you tell. I’ve communicated this a variety of times and do so again specifically for the purpose of avoiding the charges that you continue to level at me. I am not closing you off in any sense. I am closing off my ability to affirm your contention in the positive, but AGAIN, this has no bearing on the veracity of your claims, only my ability and willingness to affirm them.

I understand the aspects of Pentecostalism that you find off-putting, but that’s another mysterious piece of this puzzle. Your story simply doesn’t ring true. It doesn’t fit with the reality of my own experience in any significant sense, nor that of others with whom I’m acquainted. For example, “my belief was centered around the Word and a deep understanding of theology…”, yet you claim to have come out of Pentecostalism. Anyone who’s conversant with protestant Christianity generally understands quite well that the denomination famous for being the most shallow and the most cavalier with their use and abuse of God’s word is the Pentecostal or what has been termed “the charismatic movement”. Their particular sect of Christianity has only been around about 100 years, and while there are many genuine believers within that denomination, it is also the case that the Pentecostal and Assemblies of God denominations are rife with error and heterodoxy. This is why some of your claims seem exceedingly odd. I find it unusual, if not unbelievable that someone whose faith was centered around the Word and a deep understanding of theology would even be located within the Pentecostal church, to say nothing of spending years there. Deep theological understanding and the Pentecostal church are akin to oil and water. They simply don’t mix well at all.

Also, in another thread, I’ve mentioned names of some of the leading scholars in the area of biblical historicity and areas like lower criticism, one of which was a professor at Macquarie University in Sydney and was bishop of North Sydney, but you’re almost entirely unfamiliar with their work. I am no expert, but I am familiar with many of the broader debates inside and outside of the Church regarding the Bible’s veracity, the life of Jesus, etc… and I’m mystified as to how you can have come to genuine and legitimate conclusions regarding the Christian faith without any significant knowledge of the current scholarship. If you are reading people like Ehrman, Harris, and others; then you’re simply filling yourself up with bad information that has been openly and largely debunked. I can understand how their work can undermine one’s faith, if you have no access to the counter-arguments and the genuine exposés that have been done of their work, but as someone who was even modestly passionate about something like apologetics, I’m unable to comprehend or explain your total lack of knowledge of the resources out there that demonstrate the very things you say you need in order to have a solid foundation for faith.

Also, I do not know your situation, beyond what you say, and the things I’ve said regarding Pentecostalism are examples drawn from my own experience and knowledge of what genuinely goes on within the Church, and not only within Pentecostalism. They are suggestions as to what “might” have happened with you. It is very possible that something else happened of which I am entirely unaware, and that’s perfectly fine with me. Those suggestions and stories are not meant to be necessarily predictive or descriptive of your particular circumstance. They are merely possibilities. I have nothing riding on their accuracy in any sense. You behave as if you think I’m somehow troubled by your story, perhaps as though I find it threatening in some sense. I have to say that I’m confused by this point of view. Why would that matter to me at all? My faith is in no way based upon whether you or anyone else happens to believe the same things that I do. Admittedly, I find your story sad, but that’s the extent of my feeling. I’m somewhat perplexed by this implicit notion that I’m finding you somehow threatening. Quite the contrary actually. The longer we talk, the more I’m aware of how loosely your knowledge (i.e. justified true belief) was being held. That is not meant to be an insult in any sense. I honestly feel for you. However, it’s becoming more and more clear that you have been lacking large amounts of information, which is likely what has at least contributed to your overall problem.

Now beyond what I’ve said, I notice that you seem determined for others to affirm your genuine regenerate Christian state. I’ve told you that you’ve given me no reason to do this, but you persist in this direction. You indicate that I find you some sort of threat, that I’m putting you into a box, or that I’m disallowing your point of view as being truthful in some sense. These things are not true. Again, what is true about your situation has nothing to do with whether I can affirm it. Those are separate questions. But let me ask you some questions for clarification’s sake.

There are sort of yes or no questions.

Is it true that a Christian is one who has placed their trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the payment of their sin debt to God and that on the basis of this trust or faith, their ultimate end is an eternity spent with God in Heaven?

Is it true that Christians are those who persevere in the faith and finish the race of life?

Is it true that people who go to church and have been enlightened by the truth, tasted of the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy spirit, and tasted of the goodness of the word of God can and do fall away?

Is it true, from the Christian perspective, that God is all knowing?

Would you say yes or no to these things?

Curious…