Facing the Morally Bad Future

[FallentoReason]

@FallentoReason I've read your reply and have some verses to give you, rather than try and explain the one's you gave. Also everything is OK, had somethings needing to be attended, there is no reason to apologies, we are doing fine in this discussion, sorry I made it seem like I bailed on you.

As I said earlier that Paul preached a physical Christ and His physical resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preach to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2) and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4) that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5) that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6) Then He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen to sleep. 7) Then He appeared to James, then to the apostles. 8) Last of all, as one untimely born, He appeared also to me. 9) For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10) But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11) Whether then it was I or they, so we preached and so you believed.

These 11 verses are contrary to all you are trying to say. Here Paul definitely speaks of the physical resurrection. The twelve were preaching this same gospel, Christ appeared to Paul and he says he is not worthy to be called an apostle, why, because the twelve had first started the church that Paul says he persecuted.

The most important detail here is in the bolded. He says that even he has 'seen' the resurrected Christ. Well let's find out what he considers a resurrected Christ:

As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' And I answered, "Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.'

A 'bright light' and voices in his head are completely different to a real life person.

2Corinthians 4:1-4 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2) But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3) And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbeliever, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

In these verses Paul talks about people not messing with God's word, the OT. Paul realized the importance of being true to God's word, Paul does not indicate a philosophy here.

It cuts both ways. It all depends on what Paul's interpretation was, doesn't it? That's what we're discussing.

Romans 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Here Paul is talking about the physical resurrection of Christ.

Paul never seems to mention Pontius Pilate whenever he speaks of the crucifixion and resurrection. There's a reason for that as revealed in Corinthians and Ephesians:

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" — but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?

Of this gospel I have become a servant according to the gift of God’s grace that was given to me by the working of his power. Although I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to me to bring to the Gentiles the news of the boundless riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages by God who created all things; so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose that he has carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have access to God in boldness and confidence through faith in him.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Paul speaks of the 'rulers' that crucified Jesus but never mentions Pilate himself. Ephesians clearly demonstrates that he is speaking of rulers in heavenly places. This resurrection took place in the spiritual realm, hence why Paul doesn't mention Pontius Pilate.

Personally, given my thoughts on the Gospels, I think Paul speaks allegorically. Crucifixions were obviously common in his time and therefore it must have been the easiest way to convey one of the many mysteries of Christ Jesus.

2Corinthians 11 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2) I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3) But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be lead astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4) For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed,or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted' you put up with it readily enough. 5) I consider that I'm not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 6) Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
7) Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge? 8) i robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. 9) And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my needs. So I refrained from bothering you in any way. 10) As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the region of Achaia. 11) And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!
12) And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
13) For such men are false prophets, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14) And no wonder, for even Satan disguised himself as an angel of light. 15) So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguised themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

I believe this chapter addresses many things you brought up, first if Paul believed what Philio wrote the he would never use the name Jesus and Christ, Jesus is His earthly name and if Paul believed that his ministry came from God's revelation alone Jesus would be a no, no for him.

I can only disagree here because your justification doesn't work. Jesus being 'earthly' is the very thing we're discussing and therefore you can't assume he just is 'earthly' and therefore justify Paul's preaching.

Second Paul refers to the serpent and Satan as the same being. To do this he could not have taken the OT as a philosophy.

It would be an allegory in this instance. The serpent clearly represents Satan, like you and Paul are claiming.

Then there is this point of Paul saying we and not I in many passages, when he refers to spreading the gospel. Next let's address those super-apostles (TV preachers if I may) they were those you were mentioning, spreading a false gospel for money, and he says they will receive according to their deeds, Paul is referring to hell in this case, which if he believed Philio he would not have made such a statement. Paul puts away the other gospels you mentioned by saying he and the disciples were giving their all to stop such foolishness, and many of the riches through grace TV preacher had better take notice.

Non sequitur. Why does it follow that if Paul was talking about hell (which I don't see how you got that interpretation either) then he couldn't have believed Philo?

Again, it cuts both ways when you're saying 'Paul was trying to stop those false gospels'. That's the very thing we're discussing. What were the false gospels? Obviously because it's Paul speaking it would be whatever he's not preaching, which is what we're also discussing. Therefore it does not follow that the spiritual gospels were the false gospels simply because Paul mentions some false gospels.

Again sorry for the delay, had to take care of some family stuff, I love them and will always come to their aid.

That's alright. Glad you're still around!

On a side note, I'm just wondering why any of this would actually affect the nature of the Christian God. Do you not have the faith that what Christ achieved in the spiritual realm counts for anything? Or does your faith rely on history?