RE: I can feel your anger
July 3, 2012 at 11:35 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2012 at 11:41 pm by Jackalope.)
(July 3, 2012 at 10:58 pm)Selliedjoup Wrote: Really? so everyone here dismisses Stephen Hawking's view that there is no need for a god? Wow, first atheist forum I've come to which doesn't use that as a standard retort for the first cause argument.
If you have a problem with Hawkings' argument, take it up with him. Very, very few people are going to be able to adequately defend it.
I for one find his argument interesting, but I do not have a sufficient background in physics to defend it, so I won't. Neither will I assert that it is true.
Futhermore, I do not assert that there is no god, but rather that the burden of proof to establish the existence of god has not been met by those who assert existence. I also hold the position that the term "god" is so ill-defined that it's necessary to provide a definition of exactly what the term means before any meaningful debate can occur.
In one of the threads here, I presented an refutation of first cause (specifically WLC's version of the Kalam cosmological argument). If you're really interested in the subject, and want to argue against positions people actually hold, rather than offering someone else's argument as a proxy strawman, I'll make an effort to find it. You could of course avail yourself of our search function.
To summarize, WLC's KCA is valid, but not sound as it's premises are not known to be true - specifically, that it is not known that the cosmos began to exists, nor is the principle of causality certain (In my refutation, I offer a few examples where causality is in doubt). WLC himself has admitted that at least one of his premises is based upon intuition. Not the strongest of foundations to build an argument upon.
To paraphrase another regular here, to prove A then B, you must first prove A.
I will agree that the cosmological argument is the strongest argument that theists have to offer, but I do not find it compelling. It's truth value is unknown at this time.
Edited to add: Here's a post I made a while back that included my analysis of why I find the KCA flawed.
