(July 6, 2012 at 4:15 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: ...uh, what?
I'll repeat my objection to your line of thinking:
Let X = { a | a began to exist}
Let X' = { b | b is not in X}
Q(x) = x has a cause
(1) For all x in X, Q(x).
(2) y is in X.
(3) Therefore, Q(y).
You're saying that if the cause of y--let's call it z--is the only element in X', then the argument is guilty of begging the question.
Remember, begging the question is a fallacy wherein a premise is used again as the conclusion. So in order for this argument to beg the question, one of the premises must be "Q(y)", i.e., "The universe has a cause".
So let's suppose that, indeed, z is the only element in X'. But note that X' is never referenced in the KCA. Furthermore, neither premise (1) nor premise (2) include the assumption that the universe has a cause. So the argument can't be begging the question.
Not all of us have taken some course in syllogistic logic. I am not of the inclination to argue with letters, now will I give it a shot. I hardly believe you have anything of value to say hidden in those letters anyway.
Quote:Uh, what? How do you know that if God can do something, then the universe can too?
You have't been following this thread, have you?
The original premise was that some things can come from nothing, which I took to mean that if God could come about from nothing then create the universe, then Occham's razor dictates the universe skipping the God step was the most plausible.
Quote:You're just questioning whether his premises are actually true. That has nothing to do with whether the argument is circular, or valid in general.
Just... wow. Do I need to respond, or will most people just see the blatant stupidity for what it is?
Quote:Wow, that's completely irrelevant.
How was it said again? Oh yes. That is complete and utter bullshit.
Moving on.
Quote:Even if morality is proven not to be eternal, it could be that 'morality is not separate from consciousness' and that therefore 'if morality is eternal, so is consciousness'.
If morality is not eternal, and consciousness is necessary for morality, then consciousness isn't eternal.
I understand that the argument is sound. I don't care, because it can't be said that morality is eternal affirmatively, and is thus useless to make conversation about.
My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true.
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell