RE: Better reasons to quit Christianity
August 20, 2012 at 2:13 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 2:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 20, 2012 at 1:00 pm)spockrates Wrote: Yes, I agree. By the definition you appear to be using, predestination excludes the possibility of choice.
Your definition doesn't?
Quote:No, mi dispiace.
Not sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you defining predestination as predetermining what choices someone will make? If so, then I have to agree that Catholicism's understanding of the word is akin to Amish road apples. But I don't yet see how limiting the choices one makes is the same as making the choices for one.
Oh ffs Spock, you do realize that you continue to argue with yourself after my repeated pleas that you argue someone else's point with them and not me, right? No one is making any choices for you if the future is predestined (and that has never been any point of mine). There are no god-damned choices. I'm running out of ways to say this......
Quote:If we define predestination as predetermining what the consequences will be for the choices one freely makes, then there is no mess on the road to clean up. Is there?You keep assuming these freely made choices that you should instead be establishing (especially as they relate to an entity that can see the future). Am I not making myself clear? If the future can be known (and that knowledge can be accurate), if the course is set, then your "choices" were no such thing. It doesn't matter who can see them (or if anyone at all can see them). It has nothing to do with whether or not your "choices" have been limited (unsubstantiated bullshit btw, time to call you out on that), or whether or not you have been coerced. Precogs lead to no choice. Choice leads to no precogs (or even more complicated versions of what it means to be a precog or what it means to make a"choice" involving multiple timelines/ and or cosmic theatre - a proposition that is more thoroughly destructive to the judeo-christian myth than anything else that I can imagine).
Quote:Now lets suppose I decide to agree with you and then go to Christians and say I don't believe predestination is possible, so I don't believe there is a God who predestines anything. I can just imagine what they will say: First they will ask me what I think predestination is. I'll tell them it is God predetermining what choices we make.
Therein lies the rub, predestination [stripped of all the superstitious bullshit] appears to be orders of magnitude more likely than precognition. We see determinism everywhere we look, but try as we might, we can't seem to find any fortune-tellers. Nevertheless, if fortune tellers (of any stripe, human or divine) did exist, then certain implications would follow, such as the erosion of the concept of choice.
Quote:Then they will say something like, "You poor, deluded fool! Why do you entertain such atheistic twisting of the truth? Predestination is God predetermining what choices we have, and what the consequences of those choices will be. But it is in no way God making us choose one way, or another! Listen to reason. Listen to us and stay away from them. We won't lead you astray."
This is my problem (or your problem) precisely how? Why would I give a shit what christians say about this, why would you?
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