Do you control what you believe?

[Whateverist]

If our fears and desires are ultimately determined by entirely external and unconscious sources, how is that free?

Are our fears and desires external to our wills?

I wouldn't say so, at least not particularly. Would you say they were?

If our wills must function completely independently of fears and desires in order to be deemed "free", it is hard to imagine for what purpose we would ever 'will' anything.

Our wills don't function "completely independently of our fears or desires." They are largely influenced by them, but if our fears and desires are ultimately entirely determined by external and unconscious sources, once again, how is that free?

It comes back again to what exactly the 'will' is and is not, a very murky area.

I would say that someone's 'will' is their conscious motivation. Do you have a problem with that definition? If you do, what is it?

If we accept the definition of "will" as conscious motivation then we should also accept that there are other sources of volition than willpower on board the totality of oneself. In so far as will as we've defined it is not the sole master of 'our house', then we must concede that the will is not free. To my mind that doesn't mean will is never free, or can never have its way. Very often we do carry out what plans we have made. The question then becomes, do they satisfy?

On the other hand, if we conceptualize our conscious minds as a specialized facility whose purpose is to serve the total organism then it is possible to align ones conscious motivation with a more robust conception of self. Our identification with conscious, deliberate motivation need not form our entire self conception. When it does, the perception will be that our wills are not free. But my self conception is of something deeper and more inclusive than my conscious motivations. One of my conscious motivations is to better understand the knowledge and desires operative in me that are not fully conscious. Einstein said the rational mind should be a faithful servant to intuition. Perhaps in willing servitude, freedom is possible.

I think we have no choice but to accept and work with the fears and desires which we discover inside. It would be curious if we were able to pick and choose consciously which fears and desires we would embrace. If having to contend with fears and desires not of our choosing makes us less free then indeed we are not free. But if I consciously desire to discover and embrace the fears and desires which the environment and my greater self have instilled in me, then perhaps I am free. It would not appeal to me to have no desires or fears other than those I arbitrarily choose. That to me would feel like alienation and meaninglessness.

[Some middle of the night thoughts probably not as coherently expressed as they could be.]

---

[quote='whateverist' pid='353130' dateline='1351032050']
So long as they are our fears and desires which inform our choices, how is that not free?

If our fears and desires are ultimately determined by entirely external and unconscious sources, how is that free?

Are our fears and desires external to our wills?

I wouldn't say so, at least not particularly. Would you say they were?

If our wills must function completely independently of fears and desires in order to be deemed "free", it is hard to imagine for what purpose we would ever 'will' anything.

Our wills don't function "completely independently of our fears or desires." They are largely influenced by them, but if our fears and desires are ultimately entirely determined by external and unconscious sources, once again, how is that free?

It comes back again to what exactly the 'will' is and is not, a very murky area.

I would say that someone's 'will' is their conscious motivation. Do you have a problem with that definition? If you do, what is it?

If we accept the definition of "will" as conscious motivation then we should also accept that there are other sources of volition than willpower on board the totality of oneself. In so far as will as we've defined it is not the sole master of 'our house', then we must concede that the will is not free. To my mind that doesn't mean will is never free, or can never have its way. Very often we do carry out what plans we have made. The question then becomes, do they satisfy?

On the other hand, if we conceptualize our conscious minds as a specialized facility whose purpose is to serve the total organism then it is possible to align ones conscious motivation with a more robust conception of self. Our identification with conscious, deliberate motivation need not form our entire self conception. When it does, the perception will be that our wills are not free. But my self conception is of something deeper and more inclusive than my conscious motivations. One of my conscious motivations is to better understand the knowledge and desires operative in me that are not fully conscious. Einstein said the rational mind should be a faithful servant to intuition. Perhaps in willing servitude, freedom is possible.

I think we have no choice but to accept and work with the fears and desires which we discover inside. It would be curious if we were able to pick and choose consciously which fears and desires we would embrace. If having to contend with fears and desires not of our choosing makes us less free then indeed we are not free. But if I consciously desire to discover and embrace the fears and desires which the environment and my greater self have instilled in me, then perhaps I am free. It would not appeal to me to have no desires or fears other than those I arbitrarily choose. That to me would feel like alienation and meaninglessness.

[Some middle of the night thoughts probably not as coherently expressed as they could be.]