Human Value Nonexistent?

[genkaus]

But this seems to indicate that they are delusions then, not that they are real. They are a real only the sense, yes we feel that way, but not in the sense there actual praise, value, etc...From one way, yes, if I praise "Allah", the concept of praise exists in me. But is it objective at all?

They are actual - or rather objective - if they are based on actual things - such as your actual actions or accomplishments. If they are based on imaginary things - such as Allah - then they are delusions.

Well assuming naturalism is true, they would be created by physical reality. But it doesn't mean they aren't delusions.

As stated earlier, that'd depend on what they are based on.

This is assuming there is a way for you to know and judge. This assuming this is objective measurement to one's existence. But all of this is not proven from naturalism perspective.

Good thing I'm not using a naturalistic perspective then.

Anyways, your concept was non-sequitor, because you said they exist because we have the concepts. Now you are saying they need to be justified concepts. But saying they can be justified because we have these concepts (your justification) doesn't justify it.

You are not making any sense.

Perhaps, perhaps it's not only the act, but the spirit behind the act. Perhaps we don't attribute that much importance to actions, but the emotion that motivates such actions, the conscious feeling behind it. And we do so with belief there is perpetual free-will identity that grows and is chosen to a degree by the person.

Or perhaps not. Present an argument for me to refute - not suppositions.

But again, you "we can conceive of it, therefore they exist" is not justified.

Read what I wrote again - that is not what I said.

It has value in subjective sense for sure, because you give it value, it's valuable to you.

But if two people value you differently, for example, does that mean there is two value measurements to you? In only one sense of language, but in another sense, no there is only one measurement of who you are.

If someone values something to a degree, and another person feels the opposite of it, yes there is value in the sense of how people feel about, but what is the objective value to that thing?

And because we imagine or assume there is an objective value when we make our subjective value, doesn't mean there is any.

Except, we use separate standards for measuring value of different things all the time. The length of a stick is an objective value - whether we measure it by metres or inches. Money has an objective value - whether its in dollars or euros. Just because we haven'r found an acceptable standard for measuring the value of people doesn't mean it is not objective.

Total blame, no, but partial blame yes. Tribalism is our roots, but right now, a lot of people can feel non-nationalistic, but feel part of the whole community of the world without favoring one people over another. But it doesn't mean the human condition is not the tribe mentality.

Except, tribe-mentality has nothing to do with propagation of myths and delusions. It works just as well with facts.

There can be all sorts of free-thinkers now, doesn't mean evolution didn't favor inclination to trusting our community leaders.

There can be a lot of critical thinkers now due to the culture of education we went through, but doesn't mean evolution didn't favor non-critical think but blind following.

You are way off-base here. Neither tribe-mentality nor nationalism require you to abandon critical thinking and be blind followers.

How much people have come up with their own philosophy as opposed to following one?

Sure a society could've went away from the tribal roots of myth, and believed in morals/praise without belief in spirit/soul, but it doesn't take away what the theists feel when they assume both. A theist maybe going back to the root of tribal instinct, while an atheistic society, is "suppressing" that instinct/feeling.

The character at fault here is not tribalism but the desire for explanations.

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When I praise a person, I imagine the person existing, and personhood, that has free-will and that I don't know their exact measurement, but I praise what I perceive of them. Obviously, I don't know the person well enough to know who they are for sure. In fact, it can be all delusion, our perception of everyone and ourselves, can be all wrong. And it seems to be the case, that no one really knows anyone. We only have an image of how they appear to us, but we don't know their nature.

I can have my image of Imam Khomeini, and it would be different from you.

But try as I might, I can't stop myself from judging and having a perception of a person.

When I feel attachment to a childhood friend, I'm assuming it's the same person.

I have a concept of that person.

All this for all we know is a delusion in a total sense. What I mean by a total sense, is that none of has a possible reality behind it.

I am disgusted by behaviour of one person, another person likes it. I am attracted to one personality and another person hates that person.

Who is right here?

Humans are inclined to believe there is an objective judgment to people, but this hasn't been proven.

Any value or praise to a person isn't proven.

Can you, for once, go and read what I wrote about objective morality and values and tell me how it isn't proven?

You know, I just had a thought. Perhaps Mohammad was one of the most benevolent human beings, in that, he wanted to bring a total delusion to what human is worth.

The belief in you will see your actions on the day of judgment, read your book, and know your actions is exact measurement. That God hand's is above their hands. That God is pleased with believers.

That Angels had to bow down to the first human who had the breathe of God in him. That good Humans are not only higher then animals, but even perfect Angels.

His society was so miserable. Kids were being born of wedlock as the norm, and people were worshipping statues.

"Peace be upon the Messengers" - Who doesn't want peace? "peace be upon you" - who doesn't want peace.

Perpetual blessings. The holy spirit in humanity.

I dunno if I prefer the harsh skepticism world, as opposed to the whole world being convinced by Islam in a total world theocracy. I don't know if I care about freedom and pleasures all that much, then having humans feel they have higher purpose and meaning, and worth that they cannot imagine, as only God truly knows their worth.

So what if it's a delusion? So what if Tabatabai for example had all sort of mystical delusions in his mystic journey.

Is there a really a 'should' do here? Perhaps not, perhaps I am just hard wired to prefer humans live in a happy delusion.

Perhaps the religious leaders we all hate so much now due to "science" and "enlightenment" created the best thing for humanity from perspective of our happiness.

Perhaps Suratal Fatiha is the best invention in Arts, perhaps Quran delusion, is the best for humanity.

I don't know to be honest. All this hate to one another just makes me sad.

That is just sickening. Using lies and delusions in name of peace is not benevolent, it is downright corrupt. And as seen in today's world, bound to fail. If he/they truly were benevolent, then they'd have understood that benevolence requires not just peaceful life for everyone, but a life where everyone could be happy and grow as they desire. That is not possible in a world ruled by delusions.