Atheism not needed for a life of greater value/pleasure

[Mozart Link]

I'm an atheist with the mentality of a religious person who seeks self-enlightenment and even though a positive perspective can be achieved through atheism, some people are better off with their positive perception of religion. Atheism recognizes the reality of situations (in this case, there being no God and no afterlife). Even though it is good to recognize the reality of a situation in most cases, this is not always the case. In situations where not recognizing the reality of a situation does no harm to you or anyone else and brings you personal pleasure, then recognizing the reality of the situation is pointless. In other words, since believing in God and such would do me no harm and wouldn't make me harm others and would bring me personal pleasure in life, it would be pointless for me to be an atheist that I am now.

The more pleasure you have and the less depression you have in life, the stronger the pleasure circuits in your brain will be and the weaker the depression circuit will be. Therefore, if you use delusion in escaping stressors of life (in this case, belief in religion), this would be a good thing because the comfort and such that you get from these delusions strengthens the pleasure circuitry in the brain and keeps the stress circuitry weak which is what would later give you a good chance of eventually facing and overcoming a stressor in life that can't be escaped from using delusion. Since obviously it's a scientific fact that pleasure overcomes depression and the more pleasure you have (positive outlook on life), the more you will be able to overcome and prevent depression.

When you face a stressor in life without having any delusion to escape from it, the situation in terms of emotional well-being would be the same as having such a delusion in the sense that you are still using a positive outlook in combating the stressor. For example, a positive outlook you would use in combating the obvious stressor of not having a good life if you are religious is that when you die, you will have an afterlife of eternal joy. And if you are an atheist, a positive outlook you would use in combating this stressor would be making the best of the good things you have in this one and only life. Both of these situations are the same in the sense that they both use a positive outlook in combating life's stressors. One may be an escape while the other is facing the problem, but they are both the same in the sense that they ease and perhaps rid of the depression and give you a chance of overcoming other stressors in life.

But what would determine which of these perceptions would be better and give a life of greater pleasure and stress coping to a specific individual depends on how this individual's mind is wired. If this person's mind is wired in such a way that a perception of religion offers him/her a greater life of pleasure and stress coping than any such atheist perception could ever achieve, then believing in religion would be the best thing for this person. Which is why I say here that I am at a great disadvantage being an atheist since my mind is wired to achieve the best life of pleasure and stress coping through belief in religion.

If, for example, knowing that there is no God and no afterlife is your stressor because you feel that it makes your life inferior and hopeless and that you deserve these things, then it would be of benefit to believe in religion and there would be no benefit whatsoever in facing the stressor itself through atheism (since this is something mental and not an actual situation that needs to be addressed such as a situation that actually endangers your life, and there would be no difference in facing this stressor as opposed to using delusion to escape this stressor because, again, both of these situations are the same in the sense that they both use a positive outlook in combating this stressor. One may be an escape while the other is facing the problem, but they are both the same in the sense that they ease and perhaps rid of the stress). Therefore, in this case, it would be good to just eliminate the stress itself through any positive perception and not have to face this source of stress. As for being poorly immunized to hardship because you are not facing stressors in life, I do not believe this to be the case because, for example, if you wish to have a good immune system to things such as the cold, what you would have to do is make sure you exercise and eat right and such (not keep on experiencing these ailments). Therefore, this would also be the case for this situation as well because if you wish to be immune to stress, then you would make sure you experience all the pleasure you can and experience as less stress as possible.

Some atheists might think that if you don't need to work for your pleasure through having struggles in life, then life is unfulfilling and the pleasure is meaningless and that there being a God and afterlife makes this life less valuable. But this all depends on the person. Many people (such as myself) would find that a life of perfect pleasure with no struggles is a completely fulfilling life and that these struggles are pointless and that no positive value whatsoever can be deemed from them as well as that there being a God and afterlife actually makes this life better than a life without these things just in the sense of being brought pleasure/value and through that pleasure and value making the best of this life (better than what atheism would accomplish for me as well as others like me).

Now if you had the choice, would you be a person who is a genius and has absolutely no pleasure in life (as in literally no pleasure center at all), or would you be someone who is retarded and has all the pleasure in the world? I doubt any human being would choose the first option which obviously says that pleasure is the most important thing above having knowledge because if we just had knowledge without emotions, we would be nothing more than logical machines (this also applies to actual things we do in life because without pleasure, then these things themselves have no value). And if you were to somehow think that having a balance of pleasure and knowledge is better than having all the pleasure in the world with no knowledge, the fact of the matter is that based on the argument I just made, pleasure is still the most important thing than any amount of knowledge no matter how you try to justify otherwise. Knowledge may be useful in helping others, but going out of your way in helping others is something you are free to do--you are not expected to do so and a way of life in helping others is not better than a way of life in experiencing personal pleasure and not going out of your way and helping others because to think so is a moral, and morals are not logic (fact), they are false and irrational. Therefore, you can experience all the pleasure you want without going out of your way in helping others and that would not make your attitude bad at all. In the case of you wanting to help others though, just simply recognizing the reality of the situation of those who need help would be necessary. But as for not recognizing the reality of the situation of there being no God and no afterlife, it would be unnecessary to recognize the reality of that situation as there is no need.

Now I have come up with 2 more reasonings against atheism offering a better life of pleasure than religion. Although these 2 reasonings do contradict one another, I'm going to present them here as individual reasonings:

Reasoning #1: As I stated before that there are in fact things in life that recognizing the reality of the situation is either pointless or actually does much more harm than good, I am proof of this because I would have, in fact, lived a life of greater pleasure and stress coping if I still believed in religion and me being an atheist has brought me no such things. As for the concept that anyone can change and that I can change my attitude, you cannot always completely change your attitude (for many they can only change their attitude up to a certain degree while still living their lives filled with negativity). I feel that I could definitely be one of these people because if your mind has been wired a certain way your entire life (which would be my case as I have lived a positive life through my perception of fantasy and believing in religion), then completely rewiring your brain to live a positive life through atheism just might be an impossible goal. Therefore, you would of been better off believing religion in this case.

Reasoning #2: A reasoning in support of atheism might be that it would be a good idea for someone who believes in religion to convert over to atheism because the more pleasure you recieve from this belief, the more your life will be filled with negativity when you realize it's not true and that the sooner they convert over to atheism, the better (since the more pleasure and comfort you obtain from using delusion to escape life's problems, the worse the depression response to that problem would be when you realize that these delusions are not real). But I ask, why would living a life of pleasure (no matter what it is) make you more suspectible to negative emotions? If anything, it should make you more immune to depression because, again, the more pleasure you have (positive outlook on life), the better you are able to overcome depression. Please explain this in terms of science.

In conclusion, this universe might portray the message to atheists that we are nothing special and have no grand special purpose, but we are the ones who are special and this universe is what's not special only in the sense that it has given us no grand special purpose for us. We already deem ourselves special in the sense that we experience love and such. Therefore, since we are obviously already special, we should be living in a universe that "views" us as special by giving us things that a universe that "views" us as special would give us such as a life of perfection and perfect joy with immortality. But, of course, that's not the case and we just have to make the best of life as it is.

[SteelCurtain]

TL : DR

[CapnAwesome]

I think that life is about more than just achieving the maximum amount of pleasure. I think there is some beauty to be had in seeking after the truth and the search for the truth. Reality is good enough and life is good enough for me to love it without having to lie to myself. Also there is a case to be made that while religion may give more satisfaction to some believers, it doesn't justify it's overall existence, which makes the world a worse place.

Although I don't really care what people believe as long as it isn't hurting other people, you want to believe in crazy shit to make yourself happy, go right ahead. Just keep it to yourself. (Not talking to the thread starter specifically.)

[Sejanus]

[max-greece]

Very long - read most of it.

My impression is - your view of religion makes it all but indistinguishable from alcohol or other drugs.

I'll add the proviso that its often more dangerous to others.

[naimless]

Hi OP. I agree that atheism, particularly of the Dawkinsian variety, can often-times be the cause of severe depression and end up diminishing the standard of one's living, due to a variety of reasons, some of which you have touched upon.

It has been my experience to not expect the majority of this forum to have the intelligence to grasp what you are trying to discuss. Indeed the majority of this thread have already proven that they cannot hold an attention span for anything greater than four letters.

I find it quite ironic how some of the most pre-determined 7/7 nihilistic atheists can have a problem with a person believing in what is deemed a fantasy in their perception.

If god/life etc. is meaningless and beyond free will and depressing and there are no moral consequences to one's actions then why not do heroin, or indeed believe in a utopic dogma of some description that makes one feel on top of the world.

But no, anything beyond being a ridiculing keyboard warrior trapped in one's own ego appears to be out of the comfort zone of most self-proclaimed "free-thinkers", at least those I have had the unfortunate experience of wasting time with already.

Whilst I do not 100% agree with your conclusions, I understand the questions you ask. As clever as it may try to be, I don't think 2014 peer reviewed atheistic science holds the wise answer, nor do I expect this forum or thread to. If anything I suspect it can just reaffirm one's "gut instinct" or intuitions more-so than positively expand one's intellect or "brain wiring".

I don't really care to judge either way. But certainly I find any person with abnormal experience/beliefs in the universe more entertaining than the status quo dogmatic atheistic behavioural pattern. Indeed I would go as far to say that people who have a life of exceptional value, such as a leading artist or sports star, will have an exceptional belief in themselves and/or a higher power that the majority of forum members here would ridicule for no reason other than they consider it delusional and it frightens their ego to see someone else living their dreams.

[LastPoet]

How snob naimless. Tell us more of your superior intellect. It is odd indeed that an individual such as yourself can't grasp the simplicity of the word atheist, that it simply is a person that lacks the belief in god or gods. You wrote a wall of text consisting of strawmen and petty insults, disguised of intellectuality, I'll show you a picture that is worth 1000 words...

[Whateverist]

Mozartlink, I have no problem with your questioning the limits of meaning under atheism. However I think you may have an overly rosy picture of how satisfying a world of unquestioning belief can be.

[naimless]

LastPoet, I make no apology for what I have typed or what you may have not read properly. If Dawkinsian 7/7 atheism does not apply to you then maybe my post also does not.

Given that a leading prominent atheist invented a scale for atheism, I'd suggest the perception of the words "atheist", "god", and indeed the range of belief/disbelief is differing amongst atheists.

[Confused Ape]

I'm an atheist with the mentality of a religious person who seeks self-enlightenment

How are you defining self-enlightenment?

As I stated before that there are in fact things in life that recognizing the reality of the situation is either pointless or actually does much more harm than good, I am proof of this because I would have, in fact, lived a life of greater pleasure and stress coping if I still believed in religion and me being an atheist has brought me no such things. As for the concept that anyone can change and that I can change my attitude, you cannot always completely change your attitude (for many they can only change their attitude up to a certain degree while still living their lives filled with negativity). I feel that I could definitely be one of these people because if your mind has been wired a certain way your entire life (which would be my case as I have lived a positive life through my perception of fantasy and believing in religion), then completely rewiring your brain to live a positive life through atheism just might be an impossible goal. Therefore, you would of been better off believing religion in this case.

This sounds like you've got a brain like mine. If so, you can have the best of both worlds. You can tune into the positive subjective experiences which religious people think can only be found through religious belief but you don't have to believe in dogma or some supernatural being. The positive experiences include inner peace, a sense of the sacred and feeling at one with everything.

I find Eckhart Tolle's technique very useful. The mystical elements don't have to be taken literally because they can be interpreted in a symbolic way.

Exceprts From The Power Of Now By Eckhart Tolle

Being is the eternal, ever-present One Life beyond the myriad forms of life that are subject to birth and death. However, Being is not only beyond but also deep within every form as its innermost invisible and indestructible essence. This means that it is accessible to you now as your own deepest self, your true nature. But don't seek to grasp it with your mind. Don't try to understand it. You can know it only when the mind is still. When you are present, when your attention is fully and intensely in the Now, Being can be felt, but it can never be understood mentally. To regain awareness of Being and to abide in that state of "feeling-realization" is enlightenment.

You aren't obliged to believe that Being is beyond the myriad forms of life but life as a biological process is the same for all living things whether they're plants or animals. Tuning into this can bring an experience of feeling at one with Nature.

What is the greatest obstacle to experiencing this reality?

Identification with your mind, which causes thought to become compulsive. Not to be able to stop thinking is a dreadful affliction, but we don't realize this because almost everybody is suffering from it, so it is considered normal. This incessant mental noise prevents you from finding that realm of inner stillness that is inseparable from Being. It also creates a false mind-made self that casts a shadow of fear and suffering.

Eckhart Tolle's technique can be used anywhere or any when because it's purpose is to stop the kind of thoughts we indulge in to bring stress upon ourselves. "I've got a dental appointment tomorrow. I hate dental treatment. It's going to be awful. How am I going to cope?" If someone spends hours worrying about it they're going to end up very stressed and maybe even lying awake half the night because they can't stop thinking about it.

Religion grew out of what our distant ancestors believed these subjective experiences to be. We can't call them stupid because they had no knowledge of neuroscience. This wouldn't have been a big disaster if different groups of people hadn't come up with different beliefs and started fighting over them - "What I believe is THE TRUTH and your beliefs are wrong. Join our religion or die."

In conclusion, this universe might portray the message to atheists that we are nothing special and have no grand special purpose, but we are the ones who are special and this universe is what's not special only in the sense that it has given us no grand special purpose for us.

I'll leave you with a quote from Carl Sagan.

We are the local embodiment of a Cosmos grown to self awareness. We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose. Our loyalties are to the species and the planet. We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring.

I find this inspiring and it's also a scientific fact.